Panzer Division mid 1943 KStN

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
Post Reply
Dokis79
Member
Posts: 74
Joined: 16 May 2020, 16:21
Location: France

Panzer Division mid 1943 KStN

#1

Post by Dokis79 » 20 Oct 2020, 23:59

Hello,

I've been trying to reconstruct the theoretical organization of a mid 1943 Panzer / Panzergrenadier Division (say, around Kursk). A lot of the KStN they use were issued during the first half of 1943, and quickly superseded by the november 1943 version, so they're rather hard to find, though I've been able to find some on Germandocsinrussia / Niehorster / wwiidaybyday. I've also been going through the available NARA rolls around this time period, albeit to no avail so far.

Have any of the following KStN been found?
  • 1104 (gp) 1.6.43
  • 1153a (gp) 1.4.43
  • 1114c (gp) 1.4.43
  • 1145 1.4.43
  • 1120a 1.4.43
  • 1124a 1.4.43
  • 1150b 25.1.43
  • 1175a 25.1.43
  • 1109 (gp) 1.4.43
  • 1140 1.4.43
  • 1148d 1.6.43
  • 703a 1.3.43
  • 712 1.4.43
Thanks for your help!

Gary Kennedy
Member
Posts: 1001
Joined: 28 Mar 2012, 19:56

Re: Panzer Division mid 1943 KStN

#2

Post by Gary Kennedy » 21 Oct 2020, 01:39

All of those are in the BA-MA files, excepting 712 (Motorised Pioneer Company). A few have slightly different dates from your list, 1120a is 01/05/43 and 1124a is 01/03/43. From memory the 1943 Panzer Signal Battalion is the only major component of the Division that can't be completed, all the 1942 and early 1943 drafts of 971 (Radio Company) are missing.

Gary


Dokis79
Member
Posts: 74
Joined: 16 May 2020, 16:21
Location: France

Re: Panzer Division mid 1943 KStN

#3

Post by Dokis79 » 21 Oct 2020, 02:15

Gary Kennedy wrote:
21 Oct 2020, 01:39
All of those are in the BA-MA files, excepting 712 (Motorised Pioneer Company).
Have they been digitalized yet? I've already gone through most of the digitalized files of RH 10, but I may just have missed them.

On 712 01.04.43, I have found a document listing the personnel, weapons and vehicles totals of the company. Maybe that could be enough to reconstruct the KStN, especially if the changes seem similar to those of April 1943 KStN we already have (1124a, 714)?
Gary Kennedy wrote:
21 Oct 2020, 01:39
1120a is 01/05/43
Right, I mixed the date up when writing it down.
Gary Kennedy wrote:
21 Oct 2020, 01:39
1124a is 01/03/43.
I think it's the armored variant that is 01/03/43, Tessin as well as the KStN lists I have show 1124a as being 01/04/43.
Gary Kennedy wrote:
21 Oct 2020, 01:39
From memory the 1943 Panzer Signal Battalion is the only major component of the Division that can't be completed, all the 1942 and early 1943 drafts of 971 (Radio Company) are missing.
Niehorster has the April 1942 version of 971, though it's incomplete (no information on weapons, for instance), but the June 1942 version does seem to be missing. Have I missed an early 1943 draft of this KStN? My sources (Tessin and various KStN lists from Germandocsinrussia) indicate the June 1942 is the last variant before the November 1943 one.

Thanks.

Gary Kennedy
Member
Posts: 1001
Joined: 28 Mar 2012, 19:56

Re: Panzer Division mid 1943 KStN

#4

Post by Gary Kennedy » 21 Oct 2020, 19:54

Yes sorry, I'm getting my dates mixed up for 971, two listed for 1942 but none for mid-1943. A friend in the US has been searching for the 1942 versions for a long time for a model making project so I should have remembered that. You're right on the Pio Platoon dates as well, obviously too late for me to be posting last night!

It might be possible to reconstruct 712 from 714, it tends to be the variations in the Trains that cause the problems. At least the document you found gives a target figure to work to.

Gary

akdavis
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: 27 Feb 2013, 23:24

Re: Panzer Division mid 1943 KStN

#5

Post by akdavis » 16 Dec 2020, 21:32

Dokis79 wrote:
21 Oct 2020, 02:15
Gary Kennedy wrote:
21 Oct 2020, 01:39
All of those are in the BA-MA files, excepting 712 (Motorised Pioneer Company).
Have they been digitalized yet? I've already gone through most of the digitalized files of RH 10, but I may just have missed them.
Bumping for the above question. Specifically for 1114c (gp) 1.4.43.

User avatar
Tanker Mike
Member
Posts: 129
Joined: 04 May 2004, 16:47
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana, USA

Re: Panzer Division mid 1943 KStN

#6

Post by Tanker Mike » 30 Dec 2020, 00:38

Hi,

If you are looking for a Panzer-Division at Kursk, below is a link to the information you seek.

http://niehorster.org/011_germany/books ... x_vols.htm
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we would grow too fond of it."
— General Robert E. Lee

Post Reply

Return to “Heer, Waffen-SS & Fallschirmjäger”