BAMA KStN and KAN

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Dokis79
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BAMA KStN and KAN

#1

Post by Dokis79 » 16 Jan 2021, 03:22

Hello,

I have been looking for KStN and KAN (including Luftwaffe ones) that still appear to be missing (as in, not covered with the currently available NARA rolls, or through other public means). BAMA appears to have many of them, especially for the Luftwaffe, however there is likely much redundancy with the KStN already available through NARA, and ordering the entirety of each document in the hope of finding a few new KStN would be prohitively expensive given the price per page.

Therefore, I am wondering if anyone has an index of the KStN / KAN contained in the ranges below (or at least of those that aren't already available elsewhere), which would make the entire endeavour much more affordable:
  • RH 15/524 to RH 15/563
  • RH 15/781 to RH 15/787
  • RH 15/1207 to RH 15/1236
  • RL 2-III/554 to RL 2-III/590
  • RL 2-III/1697 to RL 2-III/1732
Thanks.

Max104740
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Re: BAMA KStN and KAN

#2

Post by Max104740 » 16 Jan 2021, 19:03

Hello Dokis,
in Invenio you can find the range of the KStN number, for instance RH 15/525 has KStN from 3 to 58, whereas in RH 15/563 you find number 101019-102074, in each folder you find more than one KStN with the same number but with different date and not only the KStN in the range are present.
You have more fortune with the unnumbered KStN, in RH 15/496-519, for them you can see in Invenio the detailed list of the KStN in each folder.
I hope this was useful for you
all the best
Max


Dokis79
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Re: BAMA KStN and KAN

#3

Post by Dokis79 » 16 Jan 2021, 20:36

Thanks for your response.
Max104740 wrote:
16 Jan 2021, 19:03
Hello Dokis,
in Invenio you can find the range of the KStN number, for instance RH 15/525 has KStN from 3 to 58, whereas in RH 15/563 you find number 101019-102074, in each folder you find more than one KStN with the same number but with different date and not only the KStN in the range are present.
I am aware of this, but was wondering if someone who already owns the documents could give more information on the dates of those KStN. Basically, for KStN that have late war versions, the other sources will generally have only the late war version (i.e. 1944, like in the T78 R391-397 series or the T283 R122-R126 one), or the late war versions if there was more than one (for instance the 1944 variant and the 1945 one). It's difficult to find the 1937-43 variants for a lot of them. So does BAMA systematically have the older variants as well? That would be great!

I was also curious about the KAN ranges I gave, since there is almost no information on those. But it's unfortunately possible that nobody has consulted them before :/

Gary Kennedy
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Re: BAMA KStN and KAN

#4

Post by Gary Kennedy » 16 Jan 2021, 20:51

The BA-MA holdings are erratic, to say the least. In my early attempts to research the subject of KStNs I was able to benefit from the hard work of others who had been able to visit the archives and assess what was in them. If there are specific KStN that you're trying to establish the whereabouts of, then if you want to post up a list of reference numbers and dates I can check to see if they are known to be in the BA-MA holdings.

Regarding KAN, I had a very brief search done a few years ago, that was not as rewarding as hoped and more difficult than it should have been. I don't know if there is a list of KAN documents held at BA-MA. I was interested in any for the Panzer Grenadiers myself but have no idea if there are any left.

Gary

Max104740
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Re: BAMA KStN and KAN

#5

Post by Max104740 » 16 Jan 2021, 21:47

Hello to everybody,
I entered in Invenio, I used the Suche function and in the “Signatur” field I entered RH 15/781 and pressed the “suchen” button on the bottom right.
In the page shown after I selected the Im Kontext anzeigen button and Invenio showed me a lot of folders with KAN, the RH 15/781- 1236, most of them with only one KAN for folder shown by Invenio, the PamzerGrenadier ones are in RH 15/983-993. It is possible to download in PDF these results, a 89 pages list.
I hope this was useful for you
Max

Dokis79
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Re: BAMA KStN and KAN

#6

Post by Dokis79 » 17 Jan 2021, 00:31

Gary Kennedy wrote:
16 Jan 2021, 20:51
The BA-MA holdings are erratic, to say the least. In my early attempts to research the subject of KStNs I was able to benefit from the hard work of others who had been able to visit the archives and assess what was in them. If there are specific KStN that you're trying to establish the whereabouts of, then if you want to post up a list of reference numbers and dates I can check to see if they are known to be in the BA-MA holdings.

Regarding KAN, I had a very brief search done a few years ago, that was not as rewarding as hoped and more difficult than it should have been. I don't know if there is a list of KAN documents held at BA-MA. I was interested in any for the Panzer Grenadiers myself but have no idea if there are any left.

Gary
Thanks. I am trying to reconstruct mid war divisions (including less common types like Jäger, Gebirgs, etc. which tend to have a lot of missing KStN) as well as some GHQ units. Here's a list (erm, it turned out a bit bigger than expected, but there really are a lot of missing KStN):
  • 25 1.2.41
  • 102 1.11.41
  • 111a 1.11.41
  • 112 1.11.41
  • 120b 10.5.43 (There's also a 12.3.43, I doubt they differ much so either would be fine)
  • 123 1.2.41
  • 125 1.2.41
  • 131a 1.11.41
  • 152 1.11.41
  • 155a 1.12.41
  • 165a 10.5.43
  • 165b 10.5.43
  • 169 6.11.42
  • 210 1.11.41
  • 406b 15.3.43
  • 411 1.11.41
  • 415 1.11.41
  • 416 1.11.41
  • 417 1.11.41
  • 432 1.12.42
  • 434b 15.3.43
  • 485 1.11.41
  • 578 1.11.41
  • 584 1.11.41
  • 584b 15.3.43
  • 702a 1.4.43
  • 703 01.02.41
  • 706 1.11.41
  • 706 1.4.43
  • 711a 1.11.41
  • 711a 1.4.43
  • 711b 1.4.43
  • 712 1.11.41
  • 721 1.11.41
  • 741 01.04.43
  • 742 01.04.43
  • 743b 1.11.41
  • 746 (there are many early war versions of this one, but none is available afaik, so whichever would do)
  • 809 1.3.42
  • 834 1.4.42
  • 836 1.3.42
  • 863 1.5.42
  • 869 1.5.42
  • 879 1.2.41
  • 1140 1.6.42
  • 1144 1.11.41
  • 1145 22.1.42
  • 1146 1.11.41
  • 1148a 15.2.42
  • 1153a (gp) 1.4.43
  • 1171 1.11.41
  • 1175 1.11.41
  • 1241 1.3.42
  • 1244 1.3.42
  • 1254 1.3.42
  • 1278 1.2.41
  • 1309 1.11.41
  • 1309 1.4.43
  • 1314 1.11.41
  • 1314 1.1.43
  • 1317 1.11.41
  • 1711 1.3.42
  • 2301 1.7.42 (or 1.3.42, both seem to have existed)
If the pre-war version of those (like the 1937-38 variants) are available I'd also be interested in them.

As for KAN, as Max104740 has said, there are fortunately also documents that contain only 1 KAN each, as a result the title of the document makes it possible to know which KAN it is. For instance, RH 15/986 contains the KAN 1114(gp) 1.11.41, which I am planning to order. It's a relatively small list though, which is why I hope the documents in the range I have given might hold more (the idea being that the KAN would help reconstruct missing KStN).

As for the Luftwaffe, I am trying to reconstruct the Field divisions. Unfortunately a list of KStN is harder to provide, though I have this document, which gives the list of KStN (no date, but it should be late 1942 or early 1943). None of those are available afaik, except 5127 and 5227 (from Germandocsinrussia).

It seems there was a new set of KStN issued for these divisions in May 1943, somewhere in the 9300-9600 range (for instance 9425 (L) Sturmgeschützbatterie (mot) einer Luftwaffen-Felddivision), but I haven't been able to get my hands on a full list.

Gary Kennedy
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Re: BAMA KStN and KAN

#7

Post by Gary Kennedy » 17 Jan 2021, 04:51

Well I have the same problem with lists, they just keep getting longer...

I've checked the refs you asked about against the list for BA-MA I used to use. I'm afraid there are not many hits. This only applies to the BA-MA holdings, I haven't checked any other potential places.

25 1.2.41 - No
102 1.11.41 - No
111a 1.11.41 - Yes
112 1.11.41 - No
120b 10.5.43 (There's also a 12.3.43, I doubt they differ much so either would be fine) - Yes 10.05.43 - No 12.0343
123 1.2.41 - Yes
125 1.2.41 - No
131a 1.11.41 - No (was 131f of 01.02.41, which is Yes)
152 1.11.41 - No
155a 1.12.41 - No
165a 10.5.43 - No
165b 10.5.43 - No
169 6.11.42 - Yes
210 1.11.41 - No
406b 15.3.43 - No
411 1.11.41 - No
415 1.11.41 - No
416 1.11.41 - No
417 1.11.41 - No
432 1.12.42 - No
434b 15.3.43 - No
485 1.11.41 - No
578 1.11.41 - Yes
584 1.11.41 - No
584b 15.3.43 - No
702a 1.4.43 - No
703 01.02.41 - No
706 1.11.41 - No
706 1.4.43 - No
711a 1.11.41 - No
711a 1.4.43 - No
711b 1.4.43 - No
712 1.11.41 - No
721 1.11.41 - No
741 01.04.43 - Yes
742 01.04.43 - Yes
743b 1.11.41 - No
746 (there are many early war versions of this one, but none is available afaik, so whichever would do) - only 01.01.43
809 1.3.42 - No
834 1.4.42 - No
836 1.3.42 - No
863 1.5.42 - No
869 1.5.42 - No
879 1.2.41 - No
1140 1.6.42 - Yes
1144 1.11.41 - Yes
1145 22.1.42 - No
1146 1.11.41 - Yes
1148a 15.2.42 - No
1153a (gp) 1.4.43 - Yes
1171 1.11.41 - Yes
1175 1.11.41 - Yes
1241 1.3.42 - No
1244 1.3.42 - No
1254 1.3.42 - No
1278 1.2.41 - No
1309 1.11.41 - No
1309 1.4.43 - No
1314 1.11.41 - No
1314 1.1.43 - Yes
1317 1.11.41 - No
1711 1.3.42 - Yes
2301 1.7.42 (or 1.3.42, both seem to have existed) - Yes 01.07.42 only

I've not seen anything for the Luftwaffe Field Divisions either I'm afraid.

I had a look at the KAN details as well (courtesy of Max), looks very bleak for the Panzer Grenadiers. I must admit I thought 1114 was for Feb1941 when I first read it, but Nov1941 would seem more likely.

Gary

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: BAMA KStN and KAN

#8

Post by Leo Niehorster » 17 Jan 2021, 11:23

Greetings.

Don't know if this has been mendtioned: There is one file that has Luftwaffe KStN(L), found in the Russisch-deutsches Projekt zur Digitalisierung deutscher Dokumente ...:
   Akte 269. Kriegsstärkenachweisungen für Personalaufgliederung der Luftwaffe, insbesondere für technische Werkstätte und Flakartillerie.

If anyone has found a way to download a file instead of one page at a time from that site, I would love to hear from them.
--
Leo
Information not passed on is lost.
URL: World War II Armed Forces

Dokis79
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Re: BAMA KStN and KAN

#9

Post by Dokis79 » 17 Jan 2021, 18:11

Gary Kennedy wrote:
17 Jan 2021, 04:51
Well I have the same problem with lists, they just keep getting longer...

I've checked the refs you asked about against the list for BA-MA I used to use. I'm afraid there are not many hits. This only applies to the BA-MA holdings, I haven't checked any other potential places.
Thanks!

I may have noticed a pattern - it seems that KStN that were struck off in 1944 are present in the BAMA holdings (in their most recent version) but not in NARA's list, whereas KStN that never were struck off and simply got updated are generally present in neither. I can't find a counterexample in the list I had, though for KStN that weren't struck off but received a different designation it seems more complicated (for example 111a 1.11.41 is present, but 131a 1.11.41 isn't).

For instance, 741 and 742 1.4.43 are present (last version before being struck off), but 743b 1.11.41 is not (not the last version before being struck off). To test this hypothesis, are the following KStN (taken from a sample that were struck off in 1944) present?
  • 480 1.11.41
  • 588 1.4.43
  • 711c 1.1.42
  • 711d 1.4.43
  • 711e 1.4.43
  • 711g 1.7.43
  • 743b 1.4.43
  • 743c 1.1.43
  • 1133 28.6.41
  • 1120 1.11.41
  • 1142 1.11.41
  • 1183(sd) 1.2.41
If the pattern holds true, it would make it much easier to determine what is or isn't present.
Leo Niehorster wrote:
17 Jan 2021, 11:23
Greetings.

Don't know if this has been mendtioned: There is one file that has Luftwaffe KStN(L), found in the Russisch-deutsches Projekt zur Digitalisierung deutscher Dokumente ...:
   Akte 269. Kriegsstärkenachweisungen für Personalaufgliederung der Luftwaffe, insbesondere für technische Werkstätte und Flakartillerie.

If anyone has found a way to download a file instead of one page at a time from that site, I would love to hear from them.
--
Leo
Thank you. I already have it. Unfortunately I haven't found a way to automate page downloads on germandocsinrussia though.

If anyone else is interested in Luftwaffe KStN, jccalvin's server has RL 2-III/573 and parts of RL 2-III/570 and RL 2-III/576
Last edited by Dokis79 on 17 Jan 2021, 22:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Christoph Awender
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Re: BAMA KStN and KAN

#10

Post by Christoph Awender » 17 Jan 2021, 18:45

Hello Leo,

I have all Lw.KStN available at the BAMA. Which do you need?

/Christoph

Max104740
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Re: BAMA KStN and KAN

#11

Post by Max104740 » 17 Jan 2021, 21:37

Hello,
I checked Dokis79 list with my data, the results are the same of Gary’s but I think that they may be useful because give information about location in BAMA files and on the presence of data from other sources, even if they are only total or partial ones.
T 78 R 871 roll presents, in my opinion, a 41 hypothesis of reorganization of pioneer units, with proposed added vehicles coloured, while in white are the starting organization ones, that for me is that of February 41, I would like to hear other members opinion about this..
For Leo I don’t know a fast way to download germandocs pages
File for Dokis.pdf
(326.64 KiB) Downloaded 82 times
I hope this was useful for you.
All the best
Max
PS now the attachment is correct

Dokis79
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Re: BAMA KStN and KAN

#12

Post by Dokis79 » 18 Jan 2021, 16:09

Thanks!

Do you know where T78 R659 (mentioned in your document) can be found? I haven't been able to find it anywhere.

I have gone through T78 R871, and it seems plausible that it could contain the February 41 versions. However, I cannot confirm it as I haven't got any of the 2.41 KStN that are portrayed there, or even personnel totals.

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