German Surrendered in Normandy

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
Richard Anderson
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Re: German Surrendered in Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 16 Sep 2021 01:02

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
15 Sep 2021 23:06
Richard Anderson wrote:
15 Sep 2021 21:35
jpz4 wrote:
15 Sep 2021 09:03
Yes, under the B.d.E.
I would assume they became subordinated to Ob.West, but I've not seen actual orders to confirm that.
I believe that was the general orders applying for all Wehrmacht forces in the event of invasion. ...
I recall more than a few references to Rundsteadt & his staff arguing about the navy personnels inclusion in this, as late as May 1944. The Navy was of course reluctant to see their near irreplaceable training units sent off into infantry combat. OB Waet argued every man who could be trusted with a weapon had to be in a Alarm Unit. My impression is this was never settled between OB West & the Navy to anyones satisfaction.
Well, it must have been settled given that at least as early as March 1944, the excess KM personnel at Brest were fully integrated into ground defense units. I suspect the same was true in Cherbourg and Toulon as well as other "fortified" ports.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: German Surrendered in Normandy

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 16 Sep 2021 02:07

These were probably not the 'excess' personnel. One reference was to staff in training units. I suspect the KM preferred plan was to evacuate those away from combat while the Army plan was the opposite. This would come up as Im departing my library for Philadelphia.

Richard Anderson
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Re: German Surrendered in Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 05 Oct 2021 01:21

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
16 Sep 2021 02:07
These were probably not the 'excess' personnel. One reference was to staff in training units. I suspect the KM preferred plan was to evacuate those away from combat while the Army plan was the opposite. This would come up as Im departing my library for Philadelphia.
Sorry Carl, I've been on vacation and only had spotty internet. I'm am still confused by what you mean. What Kriegsmarine "training units" are you referring to? As far as I can tell, none of the major KM training units: Schiffs-Stamm-Abteilungen, Marine-Stamm-Abteilungen, Schulflottillen der Unterseeboote, Schulflottillen der Schnellboots, or other school units were based in western France, so would not be subject to dispute.

However, I do know that in May 1944 the excess crews and support personnel at the naval base at Brest were organized as emergency ground combat troops with a total strength of 4,778, indicating that was the lower limit of that type within the fortress. A report of 27 August gave total Wehrmacht strength in Brest as 37,058, of which 11,523 were Heer personnel while probably no more than about 7,500 were Luftwaffe personnel of 2.FJ-Div. Thus, about 18,000 were naval personnel, including about 3,000 in Marine-Flak and Artillerie units. Those are the "excess personnel" I was referring to and most definitely they were utilized as ground combat troops.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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