10.Pz.Div....desperately help needed!!

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Christoph Awender
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10.Pz.Div....desperately help needed!!

Post by Christoph Awender » 21 May 2002 12:53

Hello!

Could someone give me information of the location of 10.Pz.Div. Nov./Dez.1942?

Problem is that I have a original map locating 10.PD at MArseille on 5.Dez.1942.
Several other sources say that the division was transported to Neapel and shipped from there to Tunesien in mid/late November.

The maps always proved right until now and I want to be 100% sure.
Please give the source of your information!

Thank you very much!

Christoph

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JC
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10 Panzerdivision

Post by JC » 21 May 2002 14:34

Hi Christoph,

Here is a quote from Panzer Army Africa by James Lucas:

"Due to Allied air raids the unloading of 10th Panzer's vehicles took three days but by 30 November two panzer companies together with other troops, were in position around Protville ready to ..."

Jeff

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hmmm

Post by Christoph Awender » 21 May 2002 15:37

Thanks very much for the info!

Looked for this town at mapquest without result... but it sounds french. So another source which seems to indicate 10.PD was in France...

This topic gets mysterious more and more!

Christoph

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JC
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10 Pz. Div.

Post by JC » 21 May 2002 15:51

Christoph,

Sorry, I thought that you would realize by the name of the book that it refered to North Africa; Tunis, Tunisia to be exact. I think Protville is just west of Tunis. So the 10th Panzer Division unloaded in Tunisia the last several days of November, 1942.

Jeff

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Christoph Awender
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ohh...

Post by Christoph Awender » 21 May 2002 17:05

oohhh :-(

Thanks for the clarification

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 21 May 2002 20:37

Just a thought, but don't military maps list the divisional posistion by means of it's HQ's. So though elements of the division moved into Tunisia in late 1942 after occupation duties in Vichy, the HQ would be still be in France whilst the advanced elements setup base in Tunisia?

:D Andy from the Shire

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Richard Murphy
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I know this doesn't help much

Post by Richard Murphy » 21 May 2002 21:18

Christoph,
Wolfgang Fischer (The divisional CO) was definitely in the theatre by 4th January, as von Arnim put him in charge of a Kampfgruppe composed of 10th Pz. Div., a Co. of Pz.-Abt. 190, 5th Fsj. Regt., II/190 Art. Regt. and Marsch Btn. A24.

Source;
"Uniforms, Organisation and History of the Afrika Korps" Roger James Bender & Richard D. Law p105 (Which, in turn cites "Siezing the Initiative in the West" p371.

How long would it take to transfer by rail from Toulon to Naples and then by sea to Tunis/Bizerte?

Regards,

Rich

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David C. Clarke
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Hi Christoph

Post by David C. Clarke » 22 May 2002 00:23

Hi Christoph, from Walter Dunn's "Second Front Now 1943", "The 10th Panzer remained in France as an occupation division until December 1942, when it was sent to Tunisia, because it was the only reasonable fit armored division not committed to the eastern front (Footnote 13).

Footnote 13, Chapter 7:Georg Tessin, Verbande un Truppen der deutsche
Wehrmacht und Waffen SS im Zweiten Weltkrieg, 1939-1945, 3:171.

Hope this helps. Cheers, David :D

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Christoph Awender
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10.Pz.Div. Dez. 1942

Post by Christoph Awender » 22 May 2002 07:58

Thanks to all for the infos.

I still think that the map is correct and the division was split up. Some sources say that the last transport of the division leaves Neapel mid November.... some say that the division was in France till end December.
I think I will go to BAMA and get some extracts of the KTB for this time to be 100% sure.
The published sources seem to differ quite a lot.

Christoph

BAMA has available:
Ia: KTB Oktober 1939 (Anlagen ab August) bis Anfang Oktober 1941 (Anlagen bis Mitte April 1943).
Qu.: KTB Mitte Oktober 1939 bis Juni 1940 und Mitte November 1940 bis Mitte April 1942 sowie Befehle und Besondere Anordnungen für die Versorgung bis Anfang Januar 1943.
Ic: TB November 1940 bis Februar 1943 und Juni 1941 bis April 1943.
IIa: TB November 1940 bis November 1942

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 22 May 2002 17:42

Christoph

Big time jealous about you just being able to pop down to the BAMA

:mrgreen: Nearest to Green for envy. Andy

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Christoph Awender
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10.PD end of 1942

Post by Christoph Awender » 25 May 2002 11:10

Hello!

Returned home and looked through the documents I have available at home.

Excerpts from Lageberichte to the O.K.H.:

16.Nov.1942:
Along the mediterranean coast 7.PD, 327.ID, 10.PD, 335.ID and 15.french Div. set up defensive positions. For Defense sector Toulon the french Navy is responsible. The coast from Hyeres to the italian border th italian Navy.

Personal diary of GREINER of 14.Nov.1942:
"......Building bridgehead Tunis (Codeword "Braun")....Following large units shall be transferred: 10.Pz.Div. (Marseille), Div.Göring (Cognac), 334.ID (Kriemhilde Div.). The transports will leave as the units are ready to transfer and enough transport space is available.

Comments of WARLIMONT about Greiners diary:
".....those units due for Tunis the 10.PD is still refreshing, Div.Göring not complete, 334.ID just existing on paper....

16.11.1942 Armeegruppe Felber:
Replacing of elements 10.PD at the coast in progress. The first train left at 03:19 to Nizza.

17.11.1942 Armeegruppe Felber:
....transports of 10.PD via Nizza as planed (10 trains left)

19.11.1942 Armeegruppe Felber:
At 10.Pz.Div. 23 trains left according to plan

20.11.1942 Armeegruppe Felber:
....24 trains of 10.PD left
22.11.1942 Armeegruppe Felber:
....31 trains of 10.Pz.Div. left
23.11.1942 Frankreich
.... 35 trains of 10.PD left....
24.11.1942 Frankreich
....39 trains of 10.PD left
25.11.1942 Frankreich
....43 trains of 10.PD left
26.11.1942 Armeegruppe Felber:
....47 trains of 10.PD left
27.11.1942 Armeegruppe Felber:
.... 51 trains of 10.PD left
28.11.1942 Armeegruppe Felber:
.... 57 trains of 10.PD left
29.11.1942 Armeegruppe Felber:
....64 trains of 10.PD left
30.11.1942 Armeegruppe Felber:
....69 trains of 10.PD left
Tunesien: Kdr. 10.PD takes command of the sector Tunis-Nord
1.12.1942
Armeegruppe Felber: ...76 trains of 10.PD left
Tunesien: LXXXX.A.K. 63 tanks and 2 Tiger operational
2.12.1942
Armeegruppe Felber: ...82 trains of 10.PD left..
Tunesien: 39 tanks and 5 Tiger operational
3.12.1942
Hitler orders to transport all Tiger tanks to Tunis and not to Dtsch.-ital.Pz.Armee.
4.12.1942
Armeegruppe Felber: ...92 trains of 10.PD left
5.12.1942
Armeegruppe Felber: ....93 trains of 10.PD left
... Because of the situation around Tunis LXXXX.A.K. is reorganized to Pz.A.O.K.5.
6.12.1942
Armeegruppe Felber: ...95 trains of 10.PD left.
7.12.1942
Armeegruppe Felber:... Transports of 10.Pz.Div. completed

First mention of the 10.Pz.Div. on 16.Dez.1942.
On 17.12.1942 Tunis: 101 tanks and 7 Tiger operational.

26.Dez.1942:
report of 5.Pz.Armee:
..... 10.Pz.Div. 2/3 strength with very low number of vehicles

31.Dez.1942
...to reinforce H.Gr.B it is ordered that Stg.Abt.242 of 10.Pz.Div. without 1 Bttr. in Italy will be reorganized for use in the east.

Christoph

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