Let's Build: The Heer/Waffen-SS 1943-44

[Roger Griffiths]

Changes between 12June and 16September44

Field ID's Lost 7 (91, 77, 352, 276, 272, 277, 271), gained 11 (89, 176, 526, 172, 12VG, 30SS, 19VG, 559VG, 36VG, 462, 198)= +4
Static ID's Lost 8 (16Lw, 18Lw, 709, 708, 326, 243, 244, 242), gained 4 (226, 59, 70, 64) = -4 NB Who is 526? On OKW OOB but no such Div. as far as I know.
Reserve ID's Lost 5 (158, 148, 157, 165, 182)(1 Disb, 2 to Italy, 2 into other ID's) = -5
Para D's Gained 1 (6)
PGD's Gained 2 from Italy (3 and 15)
PD's Gained 2 (9+10SS returned from East end June)

16September1944

Field ID's 16 (331, 85, 84, 275, 353, 89, 176, 526, 172, 12VG, 30SS, 19VG, 559VG, 36VG, 462, 198) StaticID's 22 (347, 719, 712, 348, 17Lw, 711, 716, 319, 346, 343, 344, 48, 47, 49, 245, 266, 265, 338, 226, 59, 70, 64), Reserve ID's 2 (159, 189), Para D's 4 (2, 3, 5, 6), PGD's 3, (17SS, 3, 15)PD's 11 (9SS, 21, 2, 116, 1SS, 12SS, PL, 2SS, 11, 9, 10SS), total 58

Roger

[Qvist]

Thanks Roger for that excellent info.


cheers

[Qvist]

Changes between 12June and 16September44

Field ID's Lost 7, gained 11 = +4
Static ID's Lost 8, gained 4 = -4
Reserve ID's Lost 5 (1 Disb, 2 to Italy, 2 into other ID's) = -5
Para D's Gained 1
PGD's Gained 2 from Italy
PD's Gained 2 (9+10SS returned from East end June)

16September1944

Field ID's 16, StaticID's 22, Reserve ID's 2, Para D's 4, PGD's 3, PD's 11, total 58

I make that 13 Field IDs and 18 static divisions, actually. On a related note - how would one regard the four units listed as "Div.nr" ?

cheers

[CHRISCHA]

Kampfgruppe. The terminology is generally explained near the top of the first post.

cheers

Thanks.

Yep, tracked back and saw it this time.
Sorry.

[Qvist]

No need to apologise - it was a very long post containing a great deal of data, individual bits of which are easily overlooked.

BTW, what is your project on these divisions? Any information you could furnish would be most welcome.

cheers

[CHRISCHA]

Thanks Qvist.

The research I have done is for the 38th and 306th Infantry Divisions.
My reasons for research is because I own a tunic belonging to an infantryman from the 112th Infantrie (Grenadier) Regiment, which was part of the 38th Division, and a citation for the Iron Cross belonging to a soldier from Grenadier regiment 580, which was part of the 306th Infantrie Division.

I have taken my information from Marcus's factbook, Michael Millers Axis Biographical Research, Feldgrau and from some of the books I own, including Bruce Quarrie's 'Encyclopedia of the German Army', and the 'German Army Handbook'.

Would you like me to add my findings to your thread here, or start a new thread?

Regards Chris.

[Roger Griffiths]

I have inserted the division numbers. Sounds like I have made a typo. I will check.

Roger

[Qvist]

Hmmmm....


Your field IDs

Field ID's 16 (331, 85, 84, 275, 353, 89, 176, 526, 172, 12VG, 30SS, 19VG, 559VG, 36VG, 462, 198)

Mine:

10 Inf: 12., 331. (reste), 85., 84. (reste), 89. (reste), 353. (reste), 275., 19., 36., 559., 553., 16., 198

.

Mine includes 2 ( 553. and 16.) divisions that your do not, your includes 6 (176., 526., 172., 30.SS, 559., 462.) that is not in mine. The date - 16 September - is identical. Quite an anomaly!

In addition to what is listed here under the operational commands, the KTB OKW lists this:

The OOB for September 1944 lists the following units in the HKG, beyond those stated under the operational commands:

In Aufstellung (Forming):

246., 363., 337., 349., 256., 361., 571., 340., 708., 575., 577. Infanterie-Divisionen
35., 581., 582., 576., 62., 276., 583., 584., 585., 586., 587., 588. Volksgrenadier-Divisionen
Führer-Grenadier Brigade, 1., 2. italienische

in Wiederaufstellung (re-forming):

25., "FHH", 18.Pz.Gren.-divisionen, 26.Infanterie-division

in Auffrischung (refit):

14.SS, 18.LW.

Reste, in Zuführung (remains, in transit to HKG):

47., 271., 272., 352. Infanterie-divisionen


But, as you will see, this does not account for any of the divisions that are on your OOB, but not on mine. And we haven't even looked at the static divisions yet. Help, anyone?


cheers

[Roger Griffiths]

Hi Qvist,

Not mine, but OKW listing of 16Sept44. I think 526 should be 326VG.

10ID was converted to motorized from Oct 1940, no 10ID in 44. Yes, I missed 16VG (From 158 Reserve and 16Lw) and 553VG. Actually, the VGD's were shown as grenadier divs. as at 16September44. I don't know what date the VGD title was adopted but soon after.

The lists I used were from the published War Diaries of the OKW. I also have Verbaende und Truppen by Prof. G. Tessin.

What other formations you picked up were not deployed for one reason or other, ie forming or burnt out. I don't think there are any anomalies except the mistakes I made.

Roger

[Qvist]

Hi Qvist,

Not mine, but OKW listing of 16Sept44. I think 526 should be 326VG.

The lists I used were from the published War Diaries of the OKW. I also have Verbaende und Truppen by Prof. G. Tessin.

Roger

Roger, we are both using OOBs from the KTB OKW, from the same date.

There's no reference made to 10.Infanterie-division, that's just the tally (ie, 10 Infantry divisons altogether).

Yes, I missed 16VG (From 158 Reserve and 16Lw) and 553VG. Actually, the VGD's were shown as grenadier divs. as at 16September44. I don't know what date the VGD title was adopted but soon after.

What other formations you picked up were not deployed for one reason or other, ie forming or burnt out. I don't think there are any anomalies except the mistakes I made.

Well, that accounts for the two that are missing in the list you provided. And four of those listed by you appears as "Div.nr." units in my overview - which I was uncertain how to categorise. (Div nr. 176, Div nr. 526, Div nr. 172, Div nr. 462 ). But it still does not explain why there are 2 Infantry divisions ( 30.SS and 559.) on your OOB that is not on mine, particularly seeing as they come from the same source, so I would say this is a bit of an anomaly. The lists I gave are simply copied directly from the OOB in the KTB OKW. Perhaps I have overlooked something, I will double check.


cheers

[Qvist]

Thanks Qvist.

The research I have done is for the 38th and 306th Infantry Divisions.
My reasons for research is because I own a tunic belonging to an infantryman from the 112th Infantrie (Grenadier) Regiment, which was part of the 38th Division, and a citation for the Iron Cross belonging to a soldier from Grenadier regiment 580, which was part of the 306th Infantrie Division.

I have taken my information from Marcus's factbook, Michael Millers Axis Biographical Research, Feldgrau and from some of the books I own, including Bruce Quarrie's 'Encyclopedia of the German Army', and the 'German Army Handbook'.

Would you like me to add my findings to your thread here, or start a new thread?

Regards Chris.

Up to you Chris - if you feel there are things which illustrates more general issues in this period, I'd welcome that on this thread.

cheers

[Qvist]

I checked - and I did miss out both the 559. and 30.SS. My apologies!

It appears then that our sources are in this respect in perfect harmony. I have updated the overview accordingly.

cheers

[Roger Griffiths]

Hi Qvist,

I have'nt had a chance to go back and check all my post. I did do the originals in a bit of a rush.

Regards,

Roger

[Erik E]

1 Bs Inf: 274.

What do you mean with "Bs Inf"....?

Erik

[Andy H]

Battalions possibly?

Andy H