Let's Build: The Heer/Waffen-SS 1943-44

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 24 Sep 2003 07:22

Hello

The terminology is all explained in the two overview posts. "Bs" means "Bodenständige", ie, "static".

cheers

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Erik E
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Post by Erik E » 24 Sep 2003 16:26

AOK NORWEGEN OCTOBER 1943

3 Corps: LXXI, XXXIII, LXX

Divisions

10 Inf: 196., 214., 280., 230., 270., 199., 702., 295. (forming), 269., 710.
1 Bs Inf: 274.
1 Reserve Pz: PzD "Norwegen"
1 LW: 14.
Then I would say that several of the 10 Inf should be moved down to Bs Inf.... Divisions like 214 and 280 only consisted of festung pi. Battallions, coastal artillery units and such. They were organized exactly like the 274, and were attached to a "Territoral abschnitt" the same way.

I have some oob`s of 274 and 280 if you would like to compare them :wink:

Erik

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Lupo Solitario
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Post by Lupo Solitario » 24 Sep 2003 17:31

interesting topic.

there's an useful opportunity: an italian amatorial history association, the Military Historical Center offers the NARA microfilms about German (and other Axis) armed forces in WWII (research is free)


web: http://digilander.libero.it/mhcenter
e-mail: [email protected]

hope this helps
Lupo

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 24 Sep 2003 21:18

Then I would say that several of the 10 Inf should be moved down to Bs Inf.... Divisions like 214 and 280 only consisted of festung pi. Battallions, coastal artillery units and such. They were organized exactly like the 274, and were attached to a "Territoral abschnitt" the same way.

I have some oob`s of 274 and 280 if you would like to compare them

Erik
Please post them Erik!

BTW, note that several divisions in Norway that are not classed as Bs in 1943 have that status in 1944. That it is in fact one of the things in these OOBs that require some further explanation.

cheers

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 24 Sep 2003 21:19

Lupo - thanks for a very interesting link!

cheers

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Erik E
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Post by Erik E » 25 Sep 2003 16:46

Not yet completed, but the most important units are mentioned:
274 Infanterie division. T.A.B Stavanger 1944

Festungs Inf. Btl 664 (In zuführung)

Festungs Inf. Btl 656 (4 companies)

Festungs Inf. Btl 647 (4 companies)

Infanterie rgt 865 (4 batallions, each with 4 companies)

Infanterie rgt 862 (4 batallions, each with 4 companies)

Artillerie rgt 274 ( 12 batteries, totally 44 guns from 10,5 to 22 cm)

HKAR 978 (17 coastal artillery batteries, totally 64 guns from 10 to 24cm)

Pz Kompanie Stavanger (Beutepanzer kompanie)

Pz Trupp Marnadal (In zuführung)

Pz.Kw züg Kristiansand

Nachrichtentrupp 274

Pioniertrupp 274

Nachschusstrupp 274

Feldzeug truppen

Kf.Park truppen

Vervaltungstruppen

Sanitätstruppen

Vetr. Truppen

Feldpost 274
280 Infanterie division. T.A.B Förde August 1943

Festungs Inf. Btl 655 (4 companies)

Festungs Inf. Btl 644 (4 companies)

Festungs Inf. Btl 666 (4 companies)

Festungs Inf. Btl 657 (3 companies)

HKAR 981 (19 coastal artillery batteries)

Nachrichtentrupp 280

Kf.Park trupp 280

Feldpost 169
As you see, the 280 in august 43 only had 4 festung inf btl`s and coastal artillery..... If this isn`t "Bodenstandig.....Then what is :)
It was strenghtened when it moved to Bergen in 1944. Then the 135 ID took over for them, forming the "Feldkommandantur 200 Förde"

Erik
Last edited by Erik E on 26 Sep 2003 16:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 26 Sep 2003 08:26

As you see, the 280 in august 43 only had 4 festung inf btl`s and coastal artillery..... If this isn`t "Bodenstandig.....Then what is
What indeed! So, indications so far would be that the reclassification of several of the divisions in Norway to Bs in 1944 does not reflect any significant downgrading of their real capabilities, but islargely a belated codification of an already existing state of affair.

Follow-on issue: Is the 280th typical of the divisions stationed in Norway? Were there divisons with a higher degree of mobility?

Implication: At least some of the divisions stationed in Norway could not really have been used to strengthen active fighting fronts.

cheers

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Erik E
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Post by Erik E » 26 Sep 2003 16:41

Hallo!

I have corrected the HKAR 280.....It should of course be HKAR 981!
Is the 280th typical of the divisions stationed in Norway? Were there divisons with a higher degree of mobility?
I think this is very typical for those belonging to the various "Abschnitten"
along the coast. My personal believe, is that all those you have listed as Bs in 1944, were the same in 1943. There is probably higher mobility found in the 14Lw feld.div. This division covered the largest abschnitt, stretching from Trondheim, allmost to Narvik! (And only a handfull of coastal artillery)
The ones you have listed as regular div`s in 1944, were probably in eastern Norway, and Finnmark. I would guess that these are regular divisions too......

Implication: At least some of the divisions stationed in Norway could not really have been used to strengthen active fighting fronts
Exactly!
If you look at the weapons within the 274, you will see that most of the mortars, pak, MG`s, light flak and light artillery are captured weapons. In addition, they also have lots of emplaced weapons, like 4,7(t) festungspak and festungsflammwerfer.....Only for defensive roles.
Some of the artillery in the 274 art.rgt were of the Mörser type. This takes 2 days to get ready for action!

Example

1./647 Fest.inf.

14 x Norwegian MG`s
2 x 6cm French Mortars
2 x 8,1cm French Mortars
1 x 3,7cm Pak

Also belonging to the 647, but located in the strongpoints:

7 x 5cm KwK (Emplaced)
3 x French tank turrets with 3,7cm KwK (On bunkers)
2 x 4,5cm Russian Pak
5 x 3,7cm Pak
19 x French Machineguns
2 x 8,75 cm English "LAG"
1 x 7,5cm Norwegian "LAG"
1 x 7,5cm Pak
4 x 60cm Scheinwerfer

If we now compare this to the regular Infanterie Btl in the same division,
there are only German weapons!

9.III/862 Inf.rgt

13 x German MG`s
2 x PzB39 AT-rifles
2 x 8cm German mortars
1 x 5cm German mortar

Instead of AT guns within the company, they had an ow AT unit with 6 x 7,5cm Pak and 4 x 3,7cm Pak.

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Redbaron1908
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Post by Redbaron1908 » 09 Oct 2003 21:40

I was just browsing through here and realized that this information is very helpful to me at the moment I have been reading on the eastern front but was a bit confused this helped me clear it up Thank you everyone who has posted.

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Jay Felsberg
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static divisions

Post by Jay Felsberg » 26 Oct 2003 16:30

I have good TO&E's for the infantry divisions in Normandy, but does anyone have those for the former reserve divisions (47, 48, 49)? TIA Those for any others would also be appreciated

Orders of battle I have

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Ebusitanus
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Post by Ebusitanus » 06 Dec 2003 14:18

Any chance I can get for the October 1943 scenario German units west of Velikie Luki? I´m not sure if this are falls under Army Group Center or North.

Darrin
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Re: static divisions

Post by Darrin » 06 Dec 2003 15:46

Jay Felsberg wrote:I have good TO&E's for the infantry divisions in Normandy, but does anyone have those for the former reserve divisions (47, 48, 49)? TIA Those for any others would also be appreciated

Orders of battle I have

According to zetterlings incredibly authoriative Normandy 44 book these divs were in the ob west area but did not take part in the normandy campaign. Thats all I can add.

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Post by Darrin » 06 Dec 2003 15:51

Apparently most of the indep panzer regiments you see appearing in the summer of 44 were absorbed by panzer divs from sep to dec of 44.

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Ebusitanus
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Post by Ebusitanus » 07 Dec 2003 13:16

Let me rephrase...Given the actual 1943 set up for Army Group North, which divisions were included in the 16th Army at that time?

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 05 Jan 2004 20:03

Hello Ebusitanius

16th Army as of 4 October 1943: (South to North)

Army reserve: 58.ID
XXXXIII AK: 263.ID, 83.ID, 205.ID, 201. Sich.D. (elements only)
II AK: 331., 12., 93., 218. ID
VIII AK: 32.ID, 21.LW Feld.D., 5.JgD, 207.Sich.D. (elements only)
XXXVIII AK: 8.JgD., 30., 122., 329. ID

cheers

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