Let's Build: The Heer/Waffen-SS 1943-44

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 28 May 2004 11:49

Please feel free to revive it! :D

cheers

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Wasa
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Post by Wasa » 28 May 2004 11:51

We can at least try... :)

Volklin
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Post by Volklin » 21 Jun 2004 09:17

Shouldn't this be called Let's Build: Heer 1943-44

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Panzergenadier
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Post by Panzergenadier » 26 Sep 2004 19:43

Hello!!! In December 1943 against 2. Ukranian front are: 2.Fallsch. Div., 320. Inf. Div., 286. Inf. Div., 376. Inf. Div., 8. SS Kav. Div. "Floryan Gayer", 10. Mot. Div., 3. Pz. Div., 11. Pz. Div., 13. Pz. Div., 14. Pz. Div., 3. SS Pz. Div. "Totenkopf";
On the 3-rd of february 1944 outside Cherkassy pocket were: 17.Pz. Div., 14.Pz. Div., 11.Pz. Div., 13.Pz. Div., 3.Pz. Div., 34.Inf. Div., 198. Inf. Div., 167. Inf. Div., 320. Inf. Div., 378.Inf .Div., 4(four) StuG Brg.
from 4-th of February ro 10-th of February 1944 were sent additionally: 1.Pz. Div., 16.Pz. Div., 106.Inf. Div., 1.SS Pz. Div."LSSAH", 4 (four) Pz. Abt. and 3 (three) StuG Abt.
This info is from Ivan Konievs' book "Notes of the Fronts' Commander"

Regards and my best wishes,

Panzergrenadier

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 27 Sep 2004 18:19

Hi Panzergrenadier

Thanks for the information - but is Konievs autobiography a satisafactory source for German deployments? Even the (classified) General Staff study on Korsun apparently makes some serious errors when it comes to this. See this critique:

http://www.militaryhistory.nu/critiques/critiques.html

cheers

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Panzergenadier
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Post by Panzergenadier » 27 Sep 2004 19:07

Hello, Qvist!!! Yaeh, I know that sometimes Soviet historians deliberately increase the strenght of the opposing German forces. But this information is true and the same information is shown in various sources( some Soviet, some not). However I.m going to post some more info and thereis something wrong or different please post a message.

Regards and my best wishes,

Panzergrenadier

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Panzergenadier
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Post by Panzergenadier » 27 Sep 2004 19:18

Hello!!! The link that Qvist provided shows detailed examination of that work. However in Konievs' book the strenght of the German is shown acording to POWs stories and the Ultimatum to the enclosed units. However yesterday I shown the divisions outside the pocket. This information is based mainly on intelligence reports and German papers.

Regards and my best wishes,

Panzergrenadier

Ron Klages
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Sturmartillerie Situation frm 1943 to 1944

Post by Ron Klages » 08 Oct 2004 07:31

Guys,

The thread was dying so let me enegize it with some data that covers the Sturmartillerie Unts.

Eastern Front August 31, 1943
30 Brigades and 1 Battery with 28 StuG III Kzs, 722 StuG III lgs and 63 StuH 42s for a total of 813

Eastern Front October 1, 1944
32 Brigades with 530 StuG III lgs and 234 StuH 42s for a total of 764

Southwest Front August 31, 1943
1 Brigade and 1 Battery with 32 StuG III lgs and 9 StuH 42s for a total of 41

Southwest Front October 1, 1944
3 Brigades with 28 StuG III lgs and 11 StuH 42s for a total of 39

Western Front August 31, 1943
2 Brigades one without equipment and one with unknown qty

Western Front October 1, 1944
7 brigades with 68 StuG IIIlgs and 37 StuH 42s for a total of 105

Southeast Front August 31, 1943
1 Brigade with 22 StuG III lgs and 9 StuH 42s for a total of 31

Southeast Front October 1, 1944
2 brigades with qty not known

Artic Front August 31, 1943
2 batteries with 20 StuG III lgs for a total of 20

Artic Front October 1, 1944
No units present

Homeland August 31, 1943
5 brigades with unknown qty

Homeland October 1, 1944
4 brigades with unknown qty

Total are then:

August 31, 1943
39 brigades and 4 batteries with 905 plus StuG IIIs and StuHs

October 1, 1944
48 brigades with 908 plus StuG IIIs and StuHs

More units and about the same number of guns.

Interesting!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Best regards,

Ron Klages

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Post by Gothard » 10 May 2005 04:40

Ive got the monthly Inventories if it helps. take me some time to get it all posted:

For June 1943:
Army only.
1. Kar 98 Rifles - 4,427,547
2. Pistols - ( various makes ) 1,043,148
3. Machine Guns - 181,450
4. SMG/Asslt Rifles - 242,639
5. Rifle Gren lanunchers - 298,635
6. Mortars - 34,940
7. Light AT guns - 3,800
8. Med. At Guns - 3,656
9. Hvy At Guns - 501
10. Shoulder fired At guns - na
11. Light AA - 5,900
12. Heavy AA - 512
13. Inf Guns - 4,857
14. Rocket Launchers - 2,323
15. Light Artillery - 6,473
16. heavy Artillery - 2,969
17. Super heavy art. - 409
18. pzkw I - na
19. pzkw 2 - 38
20. pzkw 3 - 1,407
21. pzkw 38t - 197
22. asslt guns - 1,612
23. pzkw 4 - 1,211
24. Pzkw V - 263
25. Pzkw VI - 191
26. AA tanks - ?
27. Tank destroyers - ?
28. Other AFV - 1,966
29. Maultier - 3,419
30. Raupenschlepper Ost - 3,303
31. Trucks - 385,371
32. Cars - 274,648
33. Motorcycles - 243,722

Pay special heed to the machine gun figures. Germans lost 70,000 machine guns as of march 43. more than 25% of total stocks. They never recovered during 1943, averages in January were 250,000. Midyear approx 180,000 and by years end 215,000. This is a drastic reduction in firepower at company level. Smg's Were reduced the same way.
A huge increase in firepower was gained in the widespread distribution of rifle grenades during 1943. These were introduced beginning in the spring and by midyear there were 300,000 launchers.
Medium anti tank gun stocks doubled and heavy AT guns were introduced on a large scale late spring with about 500 onhand by midyear. Heavy AA was also increased twofold and used in a dual role.
Rocket launchers took a serious pounding during the spring going from 3000 at years start to 2000 midyear and nearly 3000 again at years end.
some new pzkw II variants came out midyear but only about 50 all told.
pzkw III stocks dropped by 50% from the start of the year and 38t went from 300 to 200. Assault gun numbers increased from 1000 to 1500 by midyear by utilizing the pzkw III production. Panther tanks began to reach the lines from late spring and were being integrated into their units by midyear with a little less than 300 built.
Tiger tanks rose from 70 to 180 by midyear.
The maultier added a lot of mobility to the motorised troops and were intrudeced from spring 1943 - 3,500 wer ein the front lines by midyear.
Raup OSt was slow and cumbersome - numbers going from 1,000 to 4,000 by midyear but they gave the inf some much needed mobility to handle the new AT guns.

All told basic trends are a reduction in automatic firepower thats offset by rifle grenades.
A shift towards larger anti tank guns and off road prime movers. Big focus on the 88mm gun in tank and anti tank as well as AA roles.

Pzkw III was phased out, 38t was being used more for SP roles - artillery, AT guns... etc..
Pzkw IV was emerging as the main battle tank by midyear with Panthers playing a supporting role along with a few guest appearances by the tigers.

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 22 Jul 2005 12:40

Gothard -

Thank you for this post. It would be very interesting to see inventory figures also for other dates, if you feel called upon for that.

cheers

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Post by Qvist » 22 Sep 2005 22:50

Over the coming weeks, I will try to revitalise this thread by adding to it some of the materials gathered at a recent research trip to Freiburg. They'll come a bit haphazard, but I hope they will be of interest nonetheless.

First off: Gliederung of the Feldheer by "Verwendungsart" as of 15.12. 1943

Fechtende Truppen in Verbänden (Combat troops in divisions and brigades): 2,082,325 (49%)
Fechtende Heerestruppen (Combat troops in minor combat units): 424,750 (10%)
Sicherungstruppen (Security troops): 224,971 (5.3%)
Versorgungstruppen in Verbänden (Supply troops in divisions and Brigades): 380,381 (8.9%)
Versorgungstruppen u. Sonstige Truppen (supply troops and various): 896,282 (21,1%)
In Bodenständige Einrichtungen und Dienststellen (Static installations, staffs): 164,858 (3,8%)
All others: 68,076 (1,6%)
TOTAL: 4,241,553

Percentages calculated by me. Source: BA-MA RH-2 1349-3.

Some observations:

1. A quite large part - not much below 60% - of the Field Army belonged to divisions and brigades.
2. Obviously, the definition of Combat troops within units is quite broad, and that of supply troops quite narrow, since there are more than five times as many of the former as of the latter.
3. I think "Vers.tr. und Sonstige truppen" can be understood more or less as all non-combat troops not part of divisions, except for those who belonged to fixed installations, rear staffs and so on. It is rather surprising IMO that these should so clearly outnumber similar troops within the divisions, though the definitional point mentioned above must be borne in mind. The roughly 20% proportion of such troops fits well with data I have seen for individual Heeresgruppen.

Comments, elucidations, context anyone?

cheers

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Post by Qvist » 22 Sep 2005 23:02

While we are on the subject of non-combat elements, those of the Field Army could also in some aspects draw on the Organisation Todt. #8 of the same file gives the following strength of the OT as of 7 February 1944:

Deutsches Führer- und Stammpersonal (ie, German personnel): 120,000
Ausländer (Foreigners): 610,000
Gefangene: 70,000
Total: 800,000

Relative to the size of the Field Army, this represents a very considerable body of men - an obvious part of the explanation for the usual discrepancies between ration strength and Iststärke on the Heeresgruppe level and above. The OT had a manpower strength comparable to all of the non-divisional non-combat support elements of the Field Army, and while the two are naturally not wholly analogous in several important respects and functions, the OT must nevertheless have been a significant auxiliary support for the Field forces. A more detailed breakdown of function and geographical deployment would be vey welcome.

A striking element is of course the great extent to which the organisation consisted of non-German personell.

cheers

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Post by Qvist » 22 Sep 2005 23:16

Finally today, to put the Field Army strengths a little in perspective: Breakdown of Wehrmacht strength as of 1.10.1943:

Feldheer: 4,090,000 (43%)
- of whom:
1,525,000 in OKW theatres (16.3%)
2,565,000 in the East (27,4%)
Ersatzheer: 2,300,000 (24,6%)
Luftwaffe: 1,800,000 (19,2%)
Kriegsmarine: 670,000 (7,1%)
Waffen-SS: 300,000 (3,2%)
Luftwaffe Field Divisions: 200,000 (2,1%)

TOTAL: 9,360,000

Percentages calculated by me, source: BA-MA RH-2 1349-10.


cheers

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 08 Jul 2007 11:19

For November, 1, 1943 number Lüftwaffe has reached the greatest size for all war and has made 2,994,000, including:
- officers and official: - 119,000
- sub-officers and private: - 1,970,000
- auxiliary structure: - 430,000

After transfer in November, 1943 LW-Field Divisions in structure OKH number Lüftwaffe has gone down.
In tables is given number of components of armed forces of Germany for December, 1, 1943.
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Post by Yuri » 08 Jul 2007 11:29

This table for Heer is made by me on the basis of two previous tables (look above for Heer)
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