the way you think is just exactly like a damn communist who you so hate, since anyone who does not agree with you was kind of bad guys.
I could discuss this SS operation further, but I do not want to, because I consider myself a genterlman, and I only discuss things with other gentlemen.
No Paddy, that’s the Corps figure for the whole operation not just DrvarI think that report refers solely to the Drvar battlefield.
.Actually this wasn’t the case with combat losses but rather with the civilian onesThe partisans said that their losses were high but communists liked to exaggerate their sacrifices for the proletariat so they were hardly likely to disagree with German claims of 6,200-plus.
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; 7.SS: Georg Roth, Feige Wolf; and also from 373.ID, Verband Wildschütz and Luftwaffe) and Yugoslav veterans. . ;The 6,000 deaths figure is mentioned only in the Wehrmachtbericht for 6 June 1944 (and which also includes the news of Allied invasion of Normandy). If you have any other sources including for statements made by Yugoslav official please post them.The report to which you refer was dated June 7th and would have taken several days to collate and produce. So it obviously refers to Drvar itself. Remember also that partisans usually took their dead away with them, when possible, for tactical reasons, to deny the enemy information. I doubt if we will ever know the true figure of partisan KIA as a result of the raid on Drvar and the subsequent sweeps in the area.
The partisan units in Drvar and time of their arrival:Regarding the numbers of partisans in the area and who quickly arrived, I think you need to check your sources. I'll come back to you on it when I get home later this week but there were several brigades involved. Of course, some of the 'brigades' were numerically more like battalions but I do think that you are perhaps underestimating the numbers of armed partisans in the Drvar region on May 25th 1944. It was Tito's HQ.
The battalion remained in Drvar area till the end of operation guarding the town and sweeping its surroundings.Bear in mind too that the anti-partisan sweeps in the zones adjacent to Drvar, like Bihac and Petrovac, went on until June 7th and 8th. The survivors of SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500 were still in the Bihac area on active service on June 6th.
That is your opinion. Some said that Antonio Munoz's book Forgotten Legions contains the best account of Knight's Move published in English but others disagreed, including the former CO, Milius.Here are casualty reports for both sides from a Yugoslav book "Desant na Drvar" (published in 1981), this is probably one of the best (if not the best) book on the Operation Rösselsprung.
So you agree that over 6,200 Yugoslavs died as a direct consequence of Operation Knight's Move and the related anti-partisan sweeps in the area afterwards? Of course they weren't all partisans.Actually this wasn’t the case with combat losses but rather with the civilian ones.The partisans said that their losses were high but communists liked to exaggerate their sacrifices for the proletariat so they were hardly likely to disagree with German claims of 6,200-plus.
So you're trying to blow holes in my arguments but sinking your counter-arguments by admitting that there is a difference between "reported casualties" and actual casualties, that the true figure is higher than that reported. You have already agreed that over 6,200 Yugoslavs were killed. But, of course, most of them were innocent civilians who had nothing to do with the partisans, weren't they?Total for all units engaged in the operation: 399 KIA + 479 WIA (with the 1st Proletar Division suffering the highest casualties with 124 KIA, 193 WIA, 17 MIA).
These are just reported casualties, so the total is in any case higher and also doesn’t include civilian losses.
You'd swear to that, would you?The info is mostly from units reports and diaries so no post-war modifications by the communist regime.
Well, I don't know if you have ever been a soldier but rushing enemy positions in massed ranks can fairly be described as a "Zulu attack". According to various sources, including veterans from both sides whom I have interviewed, the partisans carried out several frontal assaults on the SS-FJ positions in the cemetary on the night of May 25th/26th.And based on this info I find it really hard to belive that partisans (including civilians) suffered in this short operation above 2,000 KIA and also the story of "zulu" attacks
This was typical of the assaults by the partisan forces on the defensive positions of the SS-Fallschirmjäger in the town cemetary. Have you been to Drvar? You are not far away. I was there during the last war and just afterwards. A lot of the town is still recognisable. There are also still a few people in the area who remember the battle. You should talk with them, instead of relying so heavily on a Communist-approved account.We fired Very flares to see if the bandits were forming up for a new assault. One flare had just gone out. Suddenly the Reds were climbing over the wall [PK note: the cemetary wall].
A whole mass of our flares burst, all of them white, and the bandits were silhouetted. We shot them down, but they seemed to be immune to rifle fire and kept coming.
So the officers and NCOs who took the roll calls the next morning were all mistaken, were they? Misinformed by various veterans, including the man who took over the decimated battalion after Rybka's departure, we have all been working with totally incorrect figures? The figures Mr Odic gives are correct, eh? OK, Mike, if it works for you, stick with it. I know who I prefer to believe.German casualties according to the same source:
SS-Fallschirmjäger.Btl.500: 61 KIA, 205 WIA, 11 MIA
Your use of the LOL emoticon is a bit gratuitous, isn't it? I have some of Walter Henisch's photographs. He was not a member of SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500 - note the error in nomenclature: SS-FJA 500 - but was actually a Luftwaffe kreigsberichter attached to the SS Para Bn for the operation.The author is Slavko Odic and he gathered a huge amount of sources including interviews with German (SS-FJA500: Walter Henisch, Horst Kibellus, Horst Miering, Anton Splihal - anyone you know?
Of course it’s mine but I would still strongly suggest you reading it, that is if you understand the language. Like previously mentioned its heavily based on German records.That is your opinion. Some said that Antonio Munoz's book Forgotten Legions contains the best account of Knight's Move published in English but others disagreed, including the former CO, Milius.
Maybe I wasn’t obvious enough - this was meant that communist generally liked to exaggerate their civilian losses. I don’t agree with the 6,200 number (not my opinion but according to the Corps report) and would still like to see some more sources for this figure if you don't mind including the name of the Yugoslav official.So you agree that over 6,200 Yugoslavs died as a direct consequence of Operation Knight's Move and the related anti-partisan sweeps in the area afterwards? Of course they weren't all partisans.Actually this wasn’t the case with combat losses but rather with the civilian ones.The partisans said that their losses were high but communists liked to exaggerate their sacrifices for the proletariat so they were hardly likely to disagree with German claims of 6,200-plus.
The actual casualties are higher because they involved non-combat units. In other words the personnel of various communist party organisations that were present in Drvar and who took up arms against the paratroopers.So you're trying to blow holes in my arguments but sinking your counter-arguments by admitting that there is a difference between "reported casualties" and actual casualties, that the true figure is higher than that reported. You have already agreed that over 6,200 Yugoslavs were killed. But, of course, most of them were innocent civilians who had nothing to do with the partisans, weren't they?
Hate to dissapoint you but Odic actually mentiones the unsuccessful frontal attacks.Well, I don't know if you have ever been a soldier but rushing enemy positions in massed ranks can fairly be described as a "Zulu attack". According to various sources, including veterans from both sides whom I have interviewed, the partisans carried out several frontal assaults on the SS-FJ positions in the cemetary on the night of May 25th/26th.
Does Mr Odic's book deny this? Or is it just your opinion, based on the information you have read in Mr Odic's book? Does Mr Odic state that Tito, once clear of the cave, ordered his units to disengage as he knew that German reinforcements were on their way but that local partisan commanders decided to ignore the order and try to destroy the SS Para Bn while they had the chance?
I beg you to read the whole casualty report since all info is there.So the officers and NCOs who took the roll calls the next morning were all mistaken, were they? Misinformed by various veterans, including the man who took over the decimated battalion after Rybka's departure, we have all been working with totally incorrect figures? The figures Mr Odic gives are correct, eh? OK, Mike, if it works for you, stick with it. I know who I prefer to believe.
I don’t think all of them are LOL and BTW I was just interested if you know anyone mentioned. SS-FJA 500 was my mistake.Your use of the LOL emoticon is a bit gratuitous, isn't it? I have some of Hennish's photographs. He was not a member of SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500 - note the error in nomenclature: SS-FJA 500 - but was actually a Luftwaffe kreigsberichter attached to the SS Para Bn for the operation.
No.a) You agree that Yugoslav casualties exceeded 6,200.
Yes.b) Contemporary casualty reports on the partisan side are inaccurate.
Yes.c) The Communist regime was not above falsifying records.
Yes, like every other book.d) Mr Odic's book as quoted by you contains errors.
You should have at least waited for my response to write this unbased conclusion.e) Your counter-arguments to mine are merely your opinion.
In an irregular partisan organisation, there is no such thing as “non-combattant” status. Partisans do not have any 'status' as such. Doctors and nurses serving with partisan units are sometimes treated more leniently by regular forces but in general, once you join such a group, you become a combattant and cannot expect gentle treatment when captured because you are a radio operator or a cook.The actual casualties are higher because they involved non-combat units. In other words the personnel of various communist party organisations that were present in Drvar and who took up arms against the paratroopers.
Well, it would be hard to write an account of the Battle of Drvar without mentioning the partisan frontal assaults on the SS-Fallschirmjäger lines, wouldn't it? Why would I be disappointed that Odic mentions this?Hate to dissapoint you but Odic actually mentiones the unsuccessful frontal attacks.Well, I don't know if you have ever been a soldier but rushing enemy positions in massed ranks can fairly be described as a "Zulu attack". According to various sources, including veterans from both sides whom I have interviewed, the partisans carried out several frontal assaults on the SS-FJ positions in the cemetary on the night of May 25th/26th.
Does Mr Odic's book deny this? Or is it just your opinion, based on the information you have read in Mr Odic's book? Does Mr Odic state that Tito, once clear of the cave, ordered his units to disengage as he knew that German reinforcements were on their way but that local partisan commanders decided to ignore the order and try to destroy the SS Para Bn while they had the chance?
I was responding to your post.You should have at least waited for my response to write this unbased conclusion.
Nothing "so-called" about it. It is your opinion as you expressed it. Yes, I have heard of the German sources to which you refer. I have even read some of them. I have letters here from Peter Renold about Drvar. I believe that he certainly was at Drvar.As for the so-called “my opinion” its besides the mentioned based on German sources, like Schmider, Kumm (and Renold) and Pust, I hope you’re familiar with them. The casualties and Corps report - that you have yet to comment are from these books.
Which Yugoslav official do you mean? I did not refer to a Yugoslav official. I wrote:I don’t agree with the 6,200 number (not my opinion but according to the Corps report) and would still like to see some more sources for this figure if you don't mind including the name of the Yugoslav official.
One of my schoolfriends was closely related to Fitzroy MacLean - I expect you've heard of him - and while I didn't know Fitzroy very well, I did call him up in 1991 before departing for Croatia to ask for pointers about Yugoslavia. He was very nice and told me, essentially, that I was mad to go there. He said that he hated Germans but that they were the best-behaved of all of the warring factions when he was there with Tito.OKW's summary of the Drvar mission and the related mopping-up operations in the area in the week that followed states that "the enemy lost 6,240 men", a figure that former members of Josip Broz's staff would later confirm as broadly accurate.
To get two things straight Paddy, from what I gathered you’re a quick tempered man so that’s why I chose to use the emotion codes (in any case they’re not of my taste)
Well, you got me there! I do not speak Serbo-Croat. I was able to parrot a few key phrases like "Give me a beer" and "Was it Serbian paramilitaries or regulars who killed your folk?" but I am afraid that I have put them out of my mind.I would still strongly suggest you reading it, that is if you understand the language
My mistake, I meant that these weren’t members of organized partisan formations and were barely able to use rifles.there is no such thing as “non-combattant” status
Yes, that’s the one, there were also several others present in the area and were apparently the only ones resisting against the paratroopers in the town itself, while the escort battalion took up positions on the right side of river Unac just bellow Tito’s HQ.District Committee of the Communist Youth League of Yugoslavia
Why would I be disappointed that Odic mentions this?
Yes, his own account of the battle in Kumm is really great. Apparently he was studying at the SS-Nachrichtenschule Metz when he was transferred to the Balkans and was assigned to FAT 216 (Trupp S(Z)avadil from Gruppe Benesch), which took part with SS-FJB500. Frontaufklärungstrupp 216 from Sisak was part of Frontaufklärungskommando 201, this was subordinated to Abwehr II (responsible for assassinations, guerrilla warfare, sabotages, etc.). FAT 216 was under the command of Walter Zawadill and consisted of 6 men. Its mission was to capture partisan radio stations, their codes and archives.I have letters here from Peter Renold about Drvar. I believe that he certainly was at Drvar.
Yes, I guess it does make sense and most probably these officials didn't even know the exact casualties. BTW according to Renold the Yugoslav officials also agreed with Corps number of casualties. I guess I was doubting the SS-Paratrooper heroics with casualty list posted, but I still think, given the number of partisan units involved and their subsequent actions after Drvar, that you somewhat exaggerated with the comparison with Rorke's Drift. And even if the Germans were really killing basically every civilian in Drvar’s surroundings it still would be really hard for them to get to this 6,240 number, especially with such small Korps’s numbers. Rendulic was criticized by his subordinates for exaggerating with enemies losses in his reports to the High command. Von Oberkamp (Prinz Eugen’s Kdr.) complained to Leyser that Rendulic’s reports are totally wrong and that this merely causes degradation of combat power.Anyway, Fitzroy was very interested that I knew members of the SS-Fallschirmjäger-Bataillon. I first met them when they came, with other WW2 veterans, to the party thrown by 271 Fallschirmjäger when we got our German wings. We talked about Dravr - he was actually in London at the time but returned to Tito shortly afterwards on Vis - and he said at one point that the figure of 6,240 in the main German bulletin of June 6th 1944 was confirmed to him by some of Tito's staff, including Milovan Djilas.
This makes sense. The Communists were hardly likely to downplay Yugoslav casualty figures released by the Nazis, even if they were inflated. It also makes sense that the Communists would subsequently downplay their casualty rates in order to give people like you and "Mars", for example, the impression that Rösselsprung was an unmitigated failure and that the SS-Fallschirmjäger were not as good as they in fact were.
So I guess my fears were unnecessary, I remembered a post of yours a while ago (maybe a year) also about the SS-paratroopers.I'm not "quick-tempered". You're the one who's displaying signs of a "quick temper" here.
Funny, I've read the English translation of Chuikov's book and don't remember any such sentence.Historians should dedicate this Square to their memory."
This not a waffen ss battle.Too few waffen ss units involved.Benoit Douville wrote:One of their greatest Battle indeed ended in defeat. The Kurland Pocket Battle started in September 1944 and the Waffen-SS Hold the Soviets untill May 1945! What an amazing defensive Battle if you considered that the Waffen-SS were outnumbered about 10-1 against the Red Army.
Regards
Most units involved in the battle of berlin were not waffen ss and the battle could never be won.Rob - wssob2 wrote:Funny, I've read the English translation of Chuikov's book and don't remember any such sentence.Historians should dedicate this Square to their memory."
I am very wary of the post-war overinflation of W-SS combat capabilities. Lest we forget, both Drvar and the defense of Berlin failed.
Very simplistic and unsupported statement.Timo wrote:...Hmmm, usually the SS did not draw a clear line between civilians and partisans. They simply labeled everybody they wanted to get rid of as "partisanen".mars wrote:(...) and yes, these SS paratroops did executed civilian, but these civilian death did not included in these partisan casualities, (...)
