SS battles

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Rob - wssob2
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Re: SS battles

#46

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 16 Nov 2008, 18:23

You have to consider that the English language publisher did not wish this paragraph to be included. I write as a translator.
More likely the German published added the sentence in to make the book more palatable to German audiences.

The only soldiers I remember Chiukov praising from the book were Soviet.
This not a waffen ss battle.Too few waffen ss units involved.
(referring the Kurland Pocket campaign)

Mellenthin's got it right. Most Axis units at Kurland or in the Demjansk pocket were Heer. Yet both battles have become in postwar fantasy "Waffen-SS defensive victories"

It's kinda like claims of how the Battle of the Bulge was such a successful Waffen-SS campaign. Yet the Heer Fifth Panzer Army significantly outperformed the SS Sixth Panzer Army in terms of territory acquired, etc - a fact few W-SS fans ever mention.

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mellenthin
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Re: SS battles

#47

Post by mellenthin » 16 Nov 2008, 19:42

It must be said that in the battle of the bulge the 12th ss was at the wrong spot to achieve much and Kampfgruppe Peiper did advance far.


Rob - wssob2
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Re: SS battles

#48

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 17 Nov 2008, 00:33

Here's a brief synopsis on the 12th SS during the Bulge:

Dec 14, 1944:
I Bat./SS-PGR 25 is assigned to advance Route A. In addition, the Heer 14th Werfer Regt. is temporarily attached to Hitlerjugend. The division orders are to slice through the American lines at the Losheim Gap and proceed onward to the Meuse.

Dec 15:
US 2nd Infantry Division ("Indian Head") in combat near Wahlerscheid. The 12th SS does not have adequate intelligence on the activity or positions of the US 2nd ID, which will have major implications on the progress of the upcoming campaign.

Dec 16:
Germans attack; the Battle of the Bulge begins.

SS-PGR 25 assigned to assist 277th VGD capture Rocherath, defended by the US 99th Infantry Division. 277th VGD repulsed at Rocherath Forest; 12th SS troops (I/SS-PGR 25) have to take over assault. SS-Panzerjager Abt. 12 in heavy combat in the Rocherath forest. SS troops are tentative; the opportunity to open up an advance route for March Group A is lost. Germans fail to take their first day objectives. 12th SS forces in combat at Krinkelt.

Dec 17:
II/SS-PGR 25 & SS-Panzerjäger Abt. 12 capture Rocherath and force elements of the US 23rd and 393rd Infantry Regiments to withdraw to Elsenborn. Hitlerjugend units suffer heavy casualties. The division has not yet acheived a breakthrough on Advance Route A.

Dec 18:
Division transferred to II SS-Panzerkorps. 12th SS halted at Butgenbach. I/ SS-Panzer Regiment 12 and SS-PGR 25 attack the villages of Rocherath and Krinkelt. US 99th and 2nd Infantry Divisions inflict heavy losses on the Germans. 6th SS Panzer Army orders 12th SS to cease attacks on the twin villages. 12th SS forces withdraw in order to attack the village od Bütgenbach.

I Abt., SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 in combat at Rocherath. Panther tanks of the 1st and 3rd Companies in combat at Krinkelt. Lacking infantry support, the Hitlerjugend panzers suffer heavy losses against elements of the US 38th Infantry Regiment, the 741st Tank Battalion, and the 644th and 801st Tank Destroyer Battalions. Sixth SS Panzer Army order the 12th SS to suspend attacks on the twin towns of Rocherath-Krinkelt. Advance Route A is impassable. US V Corps orders US units to withdraw fromm the twin towns.

12th SS Flak Abt. shoots down four Allied planes.

Dec 19:
Remaining 12th SS troops withdrawn from Rocherath. The division blames the muddy road conditions, the spirited defense of the US 99th ID and the failures of the 277th and 12th VGD for their defeat.

With regards to KG Peiper, it was "those damn engineers" of the US Army that bested him on Dec 18, 1944:

Peiper resumes the attack on Stavelot at 0800 hours. The US combat engineers attempt to blow the bridge into the town, but the demolition wires have been cut, possibly by one of Skorzeny's commando units. American troops holding the town center fire on the SS troops. Peiper orders his armour to bypass the town* and head for Trois Points. Peiper orders 6 & 7th companies of SS-Panzer Regiment 1, 3rd company of SS-Panzer pionier abt. 1 and a company of German paratroopers to advance to Wanne by noon, and other SS panzergrenadiers to subdue Stavelot, which they do with ruthless efficiency. Peiper's troops allegedly execute eight surrendering GI's near the Amblève bridge and may have executed at least 23 Belgian civilians at Stavelot.**

Elements of the US 291st Engineer Combat Battalion under Major Paul Solis withdraw northward from the town. Solis' men create a huge bonfire roadblock of burning gasoline from "Jerry cans" taken from a nearby million-plus gallon US fuel dump a mile outside of town. The SS tanks are forced to take an alternate route. At Trois Points, 19 SS tanks approach the bridges over the Amblève and Salm Rivers. A lone US 57mm gun manages to stop Peiper's Panther and Tiger tanks for fifteen crucial minutes - long enough for the US engineers to blow the bridges.

Thwarted again, Peiper orders his spearhead northward towards La Gleize. Turning southward, this time Peiper manages to find and cross the bridge at Cheneux, but his column is discovered by a US spotter aircraft. KG Peiper comes under American fighter-bomber attack and loses circa ten vehicles and two hours. With the fog rising and night decending, Peiper's column attempts to cross the Lienne Creek at Habiémont, but again "those dammned engineers" of the US Army manage to blow the bridge. Peiper decides to withdraw unit into the Ambleve valley and the towns of La Gleize, Stoumont & Cheneux.

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Re: SS battles

#49

Post by ohrdruf » 17 Nov 2008, 15:18

Rob

You obviously do not understand publishing.

Publishers do not add sections to the original to spice up the material for the readership. This would give rise to expensive litigation. Here is how it actually works. The Russian publisher had the world language rights. This Soviet publisher sub-licensed translations into various languages. The translation sub-licensing contract usually specifies to what extent the sub-licensee has the right to delete parts of the text. In any case this will be negotiated beforehand. The addition of any new bits of text foreign to the author's original text is a serious breach of copyright giving rise to civil and possibly criminal litigation. This would most certainly be the case if a German publisher or translator added a piece saying how wonderfully well the Waffen-SS fought when the author had made no such statement.

The German translation was probably the full text. If the English language publisher was Jewish, he may have taken out the parts praising the Waffen-SS for reasons I need not explain. I have translated for a Jewish publisher who was very firm on the point that he would never publish a book about the SS no matter how good it was. Possibly your English-language version is by this or a similar publisher.

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mellenthin
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Re: SS battles

#50

Post by mellenthin » 18 Nov 2008, 15:37

I have walked where the12th ss had to attack near Rocherath and it is absolutely not terrain suited for an armored division.No hard road and muddy it is certainly.

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