Highest scoring tank ace

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Re: Hail,

Post by Timo » 31 Jul 2002 02:06

Homer martin wrote:The very large book covering Micheal Wittmann and the tank commanders of LAH is an outstanding book and very good for reseach on all of LAH tank commanders. It is well worth the money spend on it for all the good matrial covered by the book.
Know what you're buying :roll:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... php?t=4315

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Post by David C. Clarke » 31 Jul 2002 03:45

Hey Timo, that was one heck of a thread!! I wish they could all be like that one. Cheers, DCC

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Post by Dan » 31 Jul 2002 03:51

Nice thread with good inside info.

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Post by Wolfkin » 04 Aug 2002 19:36

Hey everyone!!!

I just got the Panzer Aces book by Frank Kurowski. It looks ok. I have not read it all yet. I skimmed through it.

I have noticed a few things that makes me believe that this book should not be considered TOO reliable of a source.

For example, when reading through the Michael Wittmann part I noticed several real bad errors.

These are my corrections:

Wittmann entered Viller-Bocage ALONE on June 13, 1944. Bobby Woll was NOT his gunner at that time. Also, Wittmann's Tiger was knocked out when his group of Tigers were engaged while crossing an open field. There were a group of British tanks from the Northhamptonshire Yeomanry including a Firefly. They engaged and destroyed Wittmann's Tiger and several others. So, the Typhoon and the "cornered and surrounded" by Shermans are both wrong.

That is what I have found so far. Whenever I see books that repeat the myths and legends I immediately doubt them. But, maybe the rest of the book is ok because there is still so much controversy surrounding Wittmann that some authors may be unsure of what to think.

A person posted a rather large quote on the Missing Lynx Forum a while ago. This post included quotes from the Agte book. What made these quotes so good is that they were from veterans of the sSSPzAbt 101 who were there. There were witnesses who saw Wittmann's Tiger get hit. Why everyone still gets this wrong and still gets Viller-Bocage wrong is a mystery to me.



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Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 04 Aug 2002 20:41

Well, these persons have heard the Firefly story agin and again, and since 50 years have passed it is possible they have simply replaced what reall yhappened with what they've been told - it happens...


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Post by Wolfkin » 04 Aug 2002 23:52

Hey dude!

That's funny, I always thought that the Typhoon and "surrounded and cornered by shermans" stories were the old stories and the new evidence was that a Firefly got him. Hmmmm...confusing, eh? :)

I still can not understand the thing with Villers-Bocage. How can everyone mix that one up?

It goes like this:

Wittmann attacks the British column in the morning. He splits the column, then moves down the column, destroying vehicles as he goes. Wittmann enters Villers-Bocage with only HIS Tiger, ALONE, no other Tigers, no PzKpfw IV's but, just himself. The other four Tigers of his 2nd Company remain near Hill 213 and destroy the rest of the British column.

After engaging and destroying a few more British tanks and vehicles in Villers-Bocage, Wittmann's Tiger is disabled by an Anti-Tank gun. Wittmann and crew abandon the Tiger and escape on foot. They make their way to Panzer Lehr HQ and brief everyone on the situation.

A force of 15 PzKpfwIV from Panzer Lehr and 9 Tigers from the 1st Company attack Villers-Bocage later in the afternoon. Wittmann was NOT involved in this attack. It was just the 1st Company and some PzKpfw IV's of Panzer Lehr. NO Wittmann, No second attack by him on Villers-Bocage. 5 Tigers and 2 PzKpfw IV were lost in this assault on Villers-Bocage. But, the British later on withdrew from Villers-Bocage.

The mistake so many accounts give is involving Wittmann in the second attack, saying he made multiple trips and mixing up the sequence of events. The above is the proper sequence.



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Post by Timo » 06 Aug 2002 10:49

Also, de things veterans recall are not always what realy happened. Their "memories" are colored by their lack of "overview" of the situation, aging and last but not least visiting reunions each year over the last 60 years. The stories and versions of events they hear from their comrades often get mixed up with their own memories until they recall things they never saw.

Just my two cents.


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Post by Homer martin » 06 Aug 2002 11:50

Timo I agree 100% on your post, I have seen first hand many of the vets stories change from talking with them over the years and the further time leaves WWII behind the more I have seen the stories change.

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Post by fju » 17 Aug 2002 03:39

Hans-Ulrich Rudel
(July, 1916 - 1982)

Hans Rudel is not the kind of "Panzer Ace" such as Wittmann or Barkmann, simply because he was "Stuka Ace" and destroyed enemy armored fighting vehicles from the air.
The Luftwaffe’s supreme airman was Oberst Hans Ulrich-Rudel. He was a Panzerknacker (Tank Buster) and flew the ubiquitous Ju-87 Stuka dive-bomber. The later version, The G-1 was equipped with two 37mm cannon that Ulrich used to destroy Soviet armour. In all he flew 2, 530 combat sorties, in the process, destroying:-

• 519 Soviet Tanks
• The soviet battleship ‘Marat’
• A soviet cruiser
• A Soviet destroyer
• Severely damaged another Soviet destroyer ‘October Revolution’
• Numerous bridges
• Shot down 11 Soviet planes

However, he was the true epitome of a Nazi officer and even volunteered to land outside the Reichstag to rescue Hitler as the Soviets closed in.

For his determination and outstanding contribution to stopping the Red War Effort, he was subsequently the only man to be awarded Germany’s most outstanding honour, the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross with Golden Oakleaves, Swords and Diamonds.
Sorry, I had to bring in one of my favourite warriors through the back door.



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Post by [MK]Jagdtiger » 11 Jun 2003 19:04

why does Kurt Knispel never awarded the RK ?

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Post by Scoff » 05 Jul 2003 10:28

In Your Original list you have Baltisar Woll as No. 13, I suspect you removed cause he was a gunner most of the time (Wittman's for those who didn't know). But why is kurt knispel than stil on top??

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Post by redcoat » 05 Jul 2003 11:36

Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:Well, these persons have heard the Firefly story agin and again, and since 50 years have passed it is possible they have simply replaced what reall yhappened with what they've been told - it happens...

There was no Firefly story untill the eye-witness's were asked what happened in the 70's. It was their account of the battle, which happened to match a British battle report, which replaced the off-quoted Typoon attack.
What makes it more believable is that in the British post-battle report, it makes no mention of Wittmann. The Brits were quite unaware he had been in the battle, so it was not an attempt by the Brits to claim the glory of defeating Wittmann.

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Post by Sturmman » 10 May 2004 09:00

WHAHAHA LOL ''Would russians ever confirm german tank kills? In their opinion every russian tanker destroyed 100 Tigers each!!!'' :D :P

I love to see more info comming on this topic here, its intressting!

And to me Wittman is THE BEST, but thats just because the heroic story's I think! (yes guys, I know of the heroic storys of Carius ec 8) )

Regards Sebas

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Post by MAX_theHitMan » 10 May 2004 10:21

Ok guys, after reading through all of these posts I am still a bit confused Image

Who were the top 5 tank-killers from Germany in WWII ?
...counting all tanks shot from the begginning of Sept 1939 - until the end of the war - 1945.

BTW - great lists you fine people have come up with.
Great researching too. keep up the good work (and fun)Image


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Dieter Zinke
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Post by Dieter Zinke » 18 Jul 2004 10:39

Hallo forum,

Günter Wegmann. “Die Ritterkreuzträger der Panzertruppe“, Vol. 1 “Albert - Eysser“, Biblio-Verlag Bissendorf, 2004. 394 pages

Carius is "only" listed with 68 kills !!!

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