Gren.Div. der SS Gömbös

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Starinov
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Gren.Div. der SS Gömbös

#1

Post by Starinov » 11 May 2004, 17:40

To whom it may come, Greetings

While reading a book about the SS-RSHA written by a polish author, I found an obsure unit that the author mentionned: Grenadier Division der SS Gömbös. The name seems Hungarian. Does anybody have any info on that unit? Did it existed? Was it an early name of another Hungarian SS division?

Thanks for your help

hardi
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#2

Post by hardi » 12 May 2004, 21:01

Hi Starinov,

Div. Gömbös didn't exist.

Some reasons:

1. "Gömbös" is perplexed with div. "Hungaria" (26. Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS) many times:)

2. Formerly 4 Hungarian W-SS divs were planned (the correct names: Hunyadi, Hungaria, Gömbös, Görgey), but in fact 2 of them rised "successfully" - 25. Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS "Hunyadi" and 26. Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS "Hungaria".

Check out my site for some add. info: http://philosophy.elte.hu/~jhardi/history/en/

Cheers,

Janos


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Starinov
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#3

Post by Starinov » 13 May 2004, 15:23

So if I understand correctly, Gömbös was the early name for Hungaria...

Is there a reason why The names were changed and why the latter Gömbös was never created?

Thanks

hardi
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#4

Post by hardi » 13 May 2004, 15:33

Hi,

The Div Gömbös were actually never rised (just planned). Div Hungaria & Hunyadi were the only units that formed successfully.
But Gömbös & Hungaria "were" two distinct units - Gömbös in paper only; the Hungaria had her own career.

Cheers,
Janos

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Starinov
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#5

Post by Starinov » 13 May 2004, 16:08

Thanks a lot Hardi

Rob - wssob2
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#6

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 17 May 2004, 04:57

Hi Hardi - when you write
"Gömbös" is perplexed with div. "Hungaria" (26. Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS) many times:)
You write "perplexed" but do you mean a) confused with or b) an alternate name for

I've always seen "Gömbös" as an alternate name for the unit known as "26th Wafffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Hungaria (ungarische Nr. 2)"

But are you suggesting that "Gömbös" is an alternate name for the unit "33rd Waffen-Kavallerie-Division der SS (ungarische Nr 3)"?

Regarding the 33rd SS, I'm not 100% sure it was even formed, and have read several theories. One theory postulates that the "division" (if it can be called that) was formed from Hungarian cavalry units either immediately before or during the seige of Budapest. An alternate theory is that the division was a projected formation to be created from the "Deutsche Mannschaft" (DM) - an ethnic German militia formed in Hungary in 1943. The 5,000-man DM was under the command of HSSPF for Hungary, Otto Winckelmann.

I've never heard about the "Görgey" name before - where did you get infomation on it?

Most SS units have multiple names, which makes attempts at military history rather confusing! ;)

Thanks - Rob

hardi
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#7

Post by hardi » 17 May 2004, 10:44

Dear Rob,

First of all, congratulations for your site :)

My english is poor I guess. Yes meant "often confused with". My main resource is Andreas Payer's (= vitéz PAYER Endre) Armati Hungarorum.

Under the Szálasi régime four Hungarian Waffen-SS Divs. were planned, but four Honvéd Divs. as well (pattern: German Volksgrenadier Div.). The names:

W-SS:
1. Hunyadi
2. Hungaria
3. Gömbös
4. Görgey

Honvéd:
1. Kossuth
2. Petőfi
3. Klapka
4. Bem

The equipment, training, weapons etc are supported by the W-SS and the Wehrmacht based on a treaty between Germany and Hungary (02.11.1944) - resource: vizéz MAJOR Jenö vezérezredes: Emléktöredékek 1944. március - 1945. július (Memoirs), Petit Real.
Major was the Generalinspekteur of the Honvéd Army in Germany (1945).

The first two W-SS and Honvéd Divs. were raised only.

I guess the "mysterious" 33. SS Cavalry Div. was not one of the mentioned (e.g Gömbös) because all of them planned as Volksgrenadier.

Moreover the 1-4. W-SS Divs. were named "Hunyadi Divisions" and the Honvéd divs "Kossuth Divisions" in the hunagrian military language at that time :D

I can make a scanned doc from Payer's work indicating the mentioned list.

Cheers,

Janos

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#8

Post by Phil Nix » 17 May 2004, 12:47

Thanks Janos very useful information
Philmil

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Orok
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#9

Post by Orok » 17 May 2004, 13:00

hardi wrote:Under the Szálasi régime four Hungarian Waffen-SS Divs. were planned, but four Honvéd Divs. as well (pattern: German Volksgrenadier Div.). The names:

W-SS:
1. Hunyadi
2. Hungaria
3. Gömbös
4. Görgey

Honvéd:
1. Kossuth
2. Petőfi
3. Klapka
4. Bem
Hi hardi,

This topic really gives us some of the most confusing information. In Dr Niehorster's book The Royal Hungarian Army, 1920-1945, the Görgey Division is listed as one of those proposed for Honvéd, not Waffen-SS. He does not mention the Bem Division, instead he calls the fourth proposed Waffen-SS division as "unnamed". I don't know his source for this information, but just want you to know this alternative since Dr. Niehorster's work, although contains some factual inaccuracy and a lot of editing errors, remains the only major work on this topic in the English language.
hardi wrote:The equipment, training, weapons etc are supported by the W-SS and the Wehrmacht based on a treaty between Germany and Hungary (02.11.1944).
According to Dr. Niehorster, the Hungarian representative who negotiated this agreement was Feketehalmy-Czeydner. On the German side GdI Keiner represented the Wehrmacht and SS-Obergruppenführer Jüttner represented the Waffen-SS.

Best Regards!

hardi
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#10

Post by hardi » 17 May 2004, 14:21

Orok wrote:
According to Dr. Niehorster, the Hungarian representative who negotiated this agreement was Feketehalmy-Czeydner. On the German side GdI Keiner represented the Wehrmacht and SS-Obergruppenführer Jüttner represented the Waffen-SS.

Best Regards!
I guess Mr Niehorster is right. Unfortunately the treaty is still not in our hands - just a memo.

The other topic: I'll look after the missing infos.

Thanks Orok friend :)

BTW: Orok means Örök? (eternal in hung.) :D

If yes Eternal Friend :)

Cheers,
Janos

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#11

Post by Orok » 17 May 2004, 15:16

hardi wrote:BTW: Orok means Örök? (eternal in hung.) :D

If yes Eternal Friend :)

Cheers,
Janos
Hi Janos,

Orok = Örök!

To eternal friendship! Cheers! :lol:

And I checked the Bibliography of the Niehorster book and he indeed lists the Payer book as one of his sources. I guess he must also have some other sources to rely on. However he does not list General Major's memoire, which I presume to be a very interesting reading. Too bad General Feketehalmy was not given the opportunity to write his memoire of the war.

Best Regards!

hardi
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#12

Post by hardi » 17 May 2004, 15:38

Hi,

I'll go to the Hung. Military Archive tomorrow; there exists a sum of memorials on this topic - eg. from Sturmbannführer Podhradszky (Hunyadi div. Ia).

I hope can make a copy on them :) so perhaps I can make some translations for you :wink:

The Hungarian Dept. of th Interior has also a large amount of documents on these guys (Grassy, Feketehalmy, Ruszkay etc.) from the good old "People's Court" time...

Janos

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Orok
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#13

Post by Orok » 17 May 2004, 21:14

Janos,

I hope your field trip to the Archive will be a total success! :lol:

If you found anything interesting about these guys, please share! 8)

Best Regards!

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#14

Post by Abel Ravasz » 17 May 2004, 21:33

Hi Janos and all,
Under the Szálasi régime four Hungarian Waffen-SS Divs. were planned, but four Honvéd Divs. as well (pattern: German Volksgrenadier Div.).
Perhaps a better expression for the "Honvéd" divisions would be Hungarista (Hungarist). Or am I confusing something?

Best,

Abel

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#15

Post by hardi » 17 May 2004, 21:40

Abel,

You are right; Szálasi himself ordered to use this title Hungarista instead of "SS"; he invented some altern name for Honvéd units as well :lol:

Thanks Abel,

Janos

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