Gren.Div. der SS Gömbös
Gren.Div. der SS Gömbös
To whom it may come, Greetings
While reading a book about the SS-RSHA written by a polish author, I found an obsure unit that the author mentionned: Grenadier Division der SS Gömbös. The name seems Hungarian. Does anybody have any info on that unit? Did it existed? Was it an early name of another Hungarian SS division?
Thanks for your help
While reading a book about the SS-RSHA written by a polish author, I found an obsure unit that the author mentionned: Grenadier Division der SS Gömbös. The name seems Hungarian. Does anybody have any info on that unit? Did it existed? Was it an early name of another Hungarian SS division?
Thanks for your help
Hi Starinov,
Div. Gömbös didn't exist.
Some reasons:
1. "Gömbös" is perplexed with div. "Hungaria" (26. Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS) many times:)
2. Formerly 4 Hungarian W-SS divs were planned (the correct names: Hunyadi, Hungaria, Gömbös, Görgey), but in fact 2 of them rised "successfully" - 25. Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS "Hunyadi" and 26. Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS "Hungaria".
Check out my site for some add. info: http://philosophy.elte.hu/~jhardi/history/en/
Cheers,
Janos
Div. Gömbös didn't exist.
Some reasons:
1. "Gömbös" is perplexed with div. "Hungaria" (26. Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS) many times:)
2. Formerly 4 Hungarian W-SS divs were planned (the correct names: Hunyadi, Hungaria, Gömbös, Görgey), but in fact 2 of them rised "successfully" - 25. Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS "Hunyadi" and 26. Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS "Hungaria".
Check out my site for some add. info: http://philosophy.elte.hu/~jhardi/history/en/
Cheers,
Janos
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Hi Hardi - when you write
I've always seen "Gömbös" as an alternate name for the unit known as "26th Wafffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Hungaria (ungarische Nr. 2)"
But are you suggesting that "Gömbös" is an alternate name for the unit "33rd Waffen-Kavallerie-Division der SS (ungarische Nr 3)"?
Regarding the 33rd SS, I'm not 100% sure it was even formed, and have read several theories. One theory postulates that the "division" (if it can be called that) was formed from Hungarian cavalry units either immediately before or during the seige of Budapest. An alternate theory is that the division was a projected formation to be created from the "Deutsche Mannschaft" (DM) - an ethnic German militia formed in Hungary in 1943. The 5,000-man DM was under the command of HSSPF for Hungary, Otto Winckelmann.
I've never heard about the "Görgey" name before - where did you get infomation on it?
Most SS units have multiple names, which makes attempts at military history rather confusing!
Thanks - Rob
You write "perplexed" but do you mean a) confused with or b) an alternate name for"Gömbös" is perplexed with div. "Hungaria" (26. Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS) many times:)
I've always seen "Gömbös" as an alternate name for the unit known as "26th Wafffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Hungaria (ungarische Nr. 2)"
But are you suggesting that "Gömbös" is an alternate name for the unit "33rd Waffen-Kavallerie-Division der SS (ungarische Nr 3)"?
Regarding the 33rd SS, I'm not 100% sure it was even formed, and have read several theories. One theory postulates that the "division" (if it can be called that) was formed from Hungarian cavalry units either immediately before or during the seige of Budapest. An alternate theory is that the division was a projected formation to be created from the "Deutsche Mannschaft" (DM) - an ethnic German militia formed in Hungary in 1943. The 5,000-man DM was under the command of HSSPF for Hungary, Otto Winckelmann.
I've never heard about the "Görgey" name before - where did you get infomation on it?
Most SS units have multiple names, which makes attempts at military history rather confusing!
Thanks - Rob
Dear Rob,
First of all, congratulations for your site
My english is poor I guess. Yes meant "often confused with". My main resource is Andreas Payer's (= vitéz PAYER Endre) Armati Hungarorum.
Under the Szálasi régime four Hungarian Waffen-SS Divs. were planned, but four Honvéd Divs. as well (pattern: German Volksgrenadier Div.). The names:
W-SS:
1. Hunyadi
2. Hungaria
3. Gömbös
4. Görgey
Honvéd:
1. Kossuth
2. Petőfi
3. Klapka
4. Bem
The equipment, training, weapons etc are supported by the W-SS and the Wehrmacht based on a treaty between Germany and Hungary (02.11.1944) - resource: vizéz MAJOR Jenö vezérezredes: Emléktöredékek 1944. március - 1945. július (Memoirs), Petit Real.
Major was the Generalinspekteur of the Honvéd Army in Germany (1945).
The first two W-SS and Honvéd Divs. were raised only.
I guess the "mysterious" 33. SS Cavalry Div. was not one of the mentioned (e.g Gömbös) because all of them planned as Volksgrenadier.
Moreover the 1-4. W-SS Divs. were named "Hunyadi Divisions" and the Honvéd divs "Kossuth Divisions" in the hunagrian military language at that time
I can make a scanned doc from Payer's work indicating the mentioned list.
Cheers,
Janos
First of all, congratulations for your site
My english is poor I guess. Yes meant "often confused with". My main resource is Andreas Payer's (= vitéz PAYER Endre) Armati Hungarorum.
Under the Szálasi régime four Hungarian Waffen-SS Divs. were planned, but four Honvéd Divs. as well (pattern: German Volksgrenadier Div.). The names:
W-SS:
1. Hunyadi
2. Hungaria
3. Gömbös
4. Görgey
Honvéd:
1. Kossuth
2. Petőfi
3. Klapka
4. Bem
The equipment, training, weapons etc are supported by the W-SS and the Wehrmacht based on a treaty between Germany and Hungary (02.11.1944) - resource: vizéz MAJOR Jenö vezérezredes: Emléktöredékek 1944. március - 1945. július (Memoirs), Petit Real.
Major was the Generalinspekteur of the Honvéd Army in Germany (1945).
The first two W-SS and Honvéd Divs. were raised only.
I guess the "mysterious" 33. SS Cavalry Div. was not one of the mentioned (e.g Gömbös) because all of them planned as Volksgrenadier.
Moreover the 1-4. W-SS Divs. were named "Hunyadi Divisions" and the Honvéd divs "Kossuth Divisions" in the hunagrian military language at that time
I can make a scanned doc from Payer's work indicating the mentioned list.
Cheers,
Janos
Hi hardi,hardi wrote:Under the Szálasi régime four Hungarian Waffen-SS Divs. were planned, but four Honvéd Divs. as well (pattern: German Volksgrenadier Div.). The names:
W-SS:
1. Hunyadi
2. Hungaria
3. Gömbös
4. Görgey
Honvéd:
1. Kossuth
2. Petőfi
3. Klapka
4. Bem
This topic really gives us some of the most confusing information. In Dr Niehorster's book The Royal Hungarian Army, 1920-1945, the Görgey Division is listed as one of those proposed for Honvéd, not Waffen-SS. He does not mention the Bem Division, instead he calls the fourth proposed Waffen-SS division as "unnamed". I don't know his source for this information, but just want you to know this alternative since Dr. Niehorster's work, although contains some factual inaccuracy and a lot of editing errors, remains the only major work on this topic in the English language.
According to Dr. Niehorster, the Hungarian representative who negotiated this agreement was Feketehalmy-Czeydner. On the German side GdI Keiner represented the Wehrmacht and SS-Obergruppenführer Jüttner represented the Waffen-SS.hardi wrote:The equipment, training, weapons etc are supported by the W-SS and the Wehrmacht based on a treaty between Germany and Hungary (02.11.1944).
Best Regards!
I guess Mr Niehorster is right. Unfortunately the treaty is still not in our hands - just a memo.Orok wrote:
According to Dr. Niehorster, the Hungarian representative who negotiated this agreement was Feketehalmy-Czeydner. On the German side GdI Keiner represented the Wehrmacht and SS-Obergruppenführer Jüttner represented the Waffen-SS.
Best Regards!
The other topic: I'll look after the missing infos.
Thanks Orok friend
BTW: Orok means Örök? (eternal in hung.)
If yes Eternal Friend
Cheers,
Janos
Hi Janos,hardi wrote:BTW: Orok means Örök? (eternal in hung.)
If yes Eternal Friend
Cheers,
Janos
Orok = Örök!
To eternal friendship! Cheers!
And I checked the Bibliography of the Niehorster book and he indeed lists the Payer book as one of his sources. I guess he must also have some other sources to rely on. However he does not list General Major's memoire, which I presume to be a very interesting reading. Too bad General Feketehalmy was not given the opportunity to write his memoire of the war.
Best Regards!
Hi,
I'll go to the Hung. Military Archive tomorrow; there exists a sum of memorials on this topic - eg. from Sturmbannführer Podhradszky (Hunyadi div. Ia).
I hope can make a copy on them so perhaps I can make some translations for you
The Hungarian Dept. of th Interior has also a large amount of documents on these guys (Grassy, Feketehalmy, Ruszkay etc.) from the good old "People's Court" time...
Janos
I'll go to the Hung. Military Archive tomorrow; there exists a sum of memorials on this topic - eg. from Sturmbannführer Podhradszky (Hunyadi div. Ia).
I hope can make a copy on them so perhaps I can make some translations for you
The Hungarian Dept. of th Interior has also a large amount of documents on these guys (Grassy, Feketehalmy, Ruszkay etc.) from the good old "People's Court" time...
Janos
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