1.Gebirgsjaeger casaulties in "Operation Schwarz"
- G. Trifkovic
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1.Gebirgsjaeger casaulties in "Operation Schwarz"
Hi,
could someone give me casualty numbers of the 1.Gebirgsjäger division during the Operation Schwarz in May-June 1943?
One of the often qouted sources in the book "Embattled Mountain" by F.W.D.Deakin is "Papers of 1. german mountain division,National Archives Washington".Could I find it somewhere on the web?
Thanks,
Gaius
P.S. I posted a similar question in "WW2 in general" but no one replied.
I thought that maybe I was in the wrong section,so I post it here now.
could someone give me casualty numbers of the 1.Gebirgsjäger division during the Operation Schwarz in May-June 1943?
One of the often qouted sources in the book "Embattled Mountain" by F.W.D.Deakin is "Papers of 1. german mountain division,National Archives Washington".Could I find it somewhere on the web?
Thanks,
Gaius
P.S. I posted a similar question in "WW2 in general" but no one replied.
I thought that maybe I was in the wrong section,so I post it here now.
Re: 1.Gebirgsjaeger casaulties in "Operation Schwarz&qu
rommel_gaj wrote:Hi,
could someone give me casualty numbers of the 1.Gebirgsjäger division during the Operation Schwarz in May-June 1943?
One of the often qouted sources in the book "Embattled Mountain" by F.W.D.Deakin is "Papers of 1. german mountain division,National Archives Washington".Could I find it somewhere on the web?
Thanks,
Gaius
P.S. I posted a similar question in "WW2 in general" but no one replied.
I thought that maybe I was in the wrong section,so I post it here now.
The "Papers of...." reference is to the microfilmed records of the 1. Gebirgsdivision that are available in the U.S. National Archives. The paper originals are at BA-MA Freiburg im Breisgau in Germany. These records are not repeat not available on the internet.
Have you read the following?
Neretva-Sutjeska (Zbornik radova naucnog skupa), VII, Beograd, 1969.
Trgo, Fabijan, Cetvrta i peta neprijateljska ofanziva, "Neretva-Sutjeska 1943", Zbornik radova, Beograd, 1964, str. 9-70.
I should think you would be able to find them in a library in BiH.
--Larry
- G. Trifkovic
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Thank you Larry for such a speedy answer!
So I can`t find them on the net ...
I read a lot about the so-called "fourth" and "fifth" offensives in serbo-croatian.Problem is:all the informations in those books come from the sam e yugoslav sources.I know everythinh about the ordeal of the central hospital,heroic breaktrough attempts by the 3. and 7.divisions,lines like "We are well below half-strength,but we are fighting like we're all there",etc. I would really like to see it from german perspective.
Got any german casaultie figures?
Thanks again,
Gaius
So I can`t find them on the net ...
I read a lot about the so-called "fourth" and "fifth" offensives in serbo-croatian.Problem is:all the informations in those books come from the sam e yugoslav sources.I know everythinh about the ordeal of the central hospital,heroic breaktrough attempts by the 3. and 7.divisions,lines like "We are well below half-strength,but we are fighting like we're all there",etc. I would really like to see it from german perspective.
Got any german casaultie figures?
Thanks again,
Gaius
The short answer - for "Weiss" we have Axis casualty figures:
German - 514 KIA, 1,214 WIA, 158 MIA;
NDH - 126 KIA, 258 WIA, 218 MIA.
But for "Schwarz" we do not.
The long answer - I can say with certainty that for some unknown reason the Germans did not include their casualty figures in any of the after-action reports for "Schwarz". They did for just about every other anti-Partisan operation in the Balkans, but not for "Schwarz". Some 20 - 25 years ago I carefully examined all of the microfilmed German records of Heeresgruppe E, 104. Jäger-Div., 118. Jäger-Div., 369. Inf.Div.(kroat.), 7. SS-Freiw.Geb.Div. "Prinz Eugen", Dt.Bevollmächtigter General in Kroatien, the Dt.Gesandtschaft Agram plus many, many others and made careful notes on all of the anti-partisan operations carried out in the former Yugoslavia and Albania. I also researched all of the hundreds of books and articles published in Belgrade as well as the microfilmed Italian military records for Yugoslavia. The only one I did not examine were the records of the 1. Gebirgsdivision. But the Yugo-Serbo scholars from the Vojnoistorijski institut did examine the records of 1. Geb.Div. as have Western scholars. No one has been able to find any Axis casualty figures for "Schwarz".
The Partisan casualties are well known, of course. Although Tito managed to escape with better than half of his men after several weeks of intense, savage fighting, his losses were nevertheless catastrophic: at least 5,697 Partisans and 2,537 civilian sympathizers killed (another source speaks of 7,356 killed plus a further 1,000 wounded who either died after being abandoned or were captured by the Axis forces and murdered). Axis losses are not known, but they were minimal by comparison.
I don't know what to suggest to you, Herr Feldmarschall. If you estimated joint German, Italian and NDH casualties at around 1,500 for "Schwarz", you would probably be pretty close to the actual number.
--Larry
German - 514 KIA, 1,214 WIA, 158 MIA;
NDH - 126 KIA, 258 WIA, 218 MIA.
But for "Schwarz" we do not.
The long answer - I can say with certainty that for some unknown reason the Germans did not include their casualty figures in any of the after-action reports for "Schwarz". They did for just about every other anti-Partisan operation in the Balkans, but not for "Schwarz". Some 20 - 25 years ago I carefully examined all of the microfilmed German records of Heeresgruppe E, 104. Jäger-Div., 118. Jäger-Div., 369. Inf.Div.(kroat.), 7. SS-Freiw.Geb.Div. "Prinz Eugen", Dt.Bevollmächtigter General in Kroatien, the Dt.Gesandtschaft Agram plus many, many others and made careful notes on all of the anti-partisan operations carried out in the former Yugoslavia and Albania. I also researched all of the hundreds of books and articles published in Belgrade as well as the microfilmed Italian military records for Yugoslavia. The only one I did not examine were the records of the 1. Gebirgsdivision. But the Yugo-Serbo scholars from the Vojnoistorijski institut did examine the records of 1. Geb.Div. as have Western scholars. No one has been able to find any Axis casualty figures for "Schwarz".
The Partisan casualties are well known, of course. Although Tito managed to escape with better than half of his men after several weeks of intense, savage fighting, his losses were nevertheless catastrophic: at least 5,697 Partisans and 2,537 civilian sympathizers killed (another source speaks of 7,356 killed plus a further 1,000 wounded who either died after being abandoned or were captured by the Axis forces and murdered). Axis losses are not known, but they were minimal by comparison.
I don't know what to suggest to you, Herr Feldmarschall. If you estimated joint German, Italian and NDH casualties at around 1,500 for "Schwarz", you would probably be pretty close to the actual number.
--Larry
- G. Trifkovic
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Mr Flint ,
First tell me if your primary interest lies in the "NOB",so that I can "bookmark" you promptly!
Second,tell me if you can explain me the anomaly in the "Schwarz" case?
There HAS to be some kind of answer.For example,I've got the "Vojna Enciklopedija" (1972,I think) and in the lengthy article "Peta neprijateljska ofanziva" I remember that the casaulties for germans and NDH are given-to a soldier! Unfortunately I've got the encyclopedia not with me,it's back home.
My feverish interest in Sutjeska battle was raised when I read,a couple of years ago,on some chetnik sites that Schwarz was aimed at disarming chetniks and not destroying partisans-In the nationalist explosion duriong the bloody 90s several new serb "historians" emerged who even claimed that the battle never took place!
Third tell me if you got some pics from NOB,both partisan and german?
And fourth (and the last ) tell me something about yourself-it's not everyday that you meet member which is so well informed!
Thanks many times,
Cheers,
Gaius
First tell me if your primary interest lies in the "NOB",so that I can "bookmark" you promptly!
Second,tell me if you can explain me the anomaly in the "Schwarz" case?
There HAS to be some kind of answer.For example,I've got the "Vojna Enciklopedija" (1972,I think) and in the lengthy article "Peta neprijateljska ofanziva" I remember that the casaulties for germans and NDH are given-to a soldier! Unfortunately I've got the encyclopedia not with me,it's back home.
My feverish interest in Sutjeska battle was raised when I read,a couple of years ago,on some chetnik sites that Schwarz was aimed at disarming chetniks and not destroying partisans-In the nationalist explosion duriong the bloody 90s several new serb "historians" emerged who even claimed that the battle never took place!
Third tell me if you got some pics from NOB,both partisan and german?
And fourth (and the last ) tell me something about yourself-it's not everyday that you meet member which is so well informed!
Thanks many times,
Cheers,
Gaius
Caesar ( -
To One: no, I have a number of other interests; the NDH and the Second World War in the former Yugoslavia is just one of them.
To two: I cannot explain why the Vojna Enciklopedija would have the casualty numbers, yet apparently no one else has them. The military history information published by VII between 1956 and 1989 is generally reliable as far as the facts are concerned. Naturally, one should ignore a lot of the political hyperbole. I never checked the encyclopedia. As for the Chetniks, "Schwarz" had nothing to do with them. The operation did, indeed, take place.
To three: no pictures - I have never collected photographs.
To four: only off-board; the "enemy" is listening, you know .
--Larry
To One: no, I have a number of other interests; the NDH and the Second World War in the former Yugoslavia is just one of them.
To two: I cannot explain why the Vojna Enciklopedija would have the casualty numbers, yet apparently no one else has them. The military history information published by VII between 1956 and 1989 is generally reliable as far as the facts are concerned. Naturally, one should ignore a lot of the political hyperbole. I never checked the encyclopedia. As for the Chetniks, "Schwarz" had nothing to do with them. The operation did, indeed, take place.
To three: no pictures - I have never collected photographs.
To four: only off-board; the "enemy" is listening, you know .
--Larry
- G. Trifkovic
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- G. Trifkovic
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As the Greeks would say-DEUS EX MACHINA!!!
Just when I thought everything was lost-Slovenian comrades come to the rescue!
Now,Mr. Mark III, a question (I know that I'm a pain in the ass)-which source did Herr Schmider qoute for theese figures? This may sound silly ,but are there some Germans with the gun covering the valley beneath them (you can see more high mountains on the opposite side of the valley) on the cover-page? I think I saw the book in a bookstore here in Graz,but I ain't sure...
Thanks a lot,
Cheers,
Gaius
Just when I thought everything was lost-Slovenian comrades come to the rescue!
Now,Mr. Mark III, a question (I know that I'm a pain in the ass)-which source did Herr Schmider qoute for theese figures? This may sound silly ,but are there some Germans with the gun covering the valley beneath them (you can see more high mountains on the opposite side of the valley) on the cover-page? I think I saw the book in a bookstore here in Graz,but I ain't sure...
Thanks a lot,
Cheers,
Gaius
Amazing, Sir Mark of Slovenia, and a tip of the hat to you. I went all through the Befehlshaber d.dt.Tr. in Kroatien documents on microfilm and did see those figures. Perhaps not everything was microfilmed when the documents were in Washington back in the 1950's. The missing folders and files could have turned up in Freiburg later, hence Herr Schmider's ability to discover the figures.
Thank you for sharing that information with us.
--Larry
Thank you for sharing that information with us.
--Larry
- Ivan Bajlo
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I got only details for partisans:
http://www.vojska.net/ww2/battles/schwarz
My Vojna Enciklopedija is earlier edition.
From what I understand Wehrmacht sent causalities reports for 10-day periods try finding that instead of only for 1.Gebirgsjäger division.
http://www.vojska.net/ww2/germany/casua ... efault.asp
http://www.vojska.net/ww2/battles/schwarz
My Vojna Enciklopedija is earlier edition.
From what I understand Wehrmacht sent causalities reports for 10-day periods try finding that instead of only for 1.Gebirgsjäger division.
http://www.vojska.net/ww2/germany/casua ... efault.asp
- G. Trifkovic
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- G. Trifkovic
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- Location: The South-East
- G. Trifkovic
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Finally, after almost three years I found the answer on the original question from my first post
1. Gebirgsjaeger losses in "Schwarz":
43 KIA, 195 WIA, 2 MIA
Other Axis units:
118. Jg.Div: 252/676/130
369. Leg.Div:92/263/233
7.SS.Div:120/460/33
Brandenburg&Pi.Btl.659: 12/46/15
Jg.Rgt.724:2/3
II/734: 46/84/3
II./724:6/33/9
Kroaten: 40/166/205
A scan of the original German document from which these figures come is attached. Many thanks to "Avijacija bez granica" forum who provided this scan.
1. Gebirgsjaeger losses in "Schwarz":
43 KIA, 195 WIA, 2 MIA
Other Axis units:
118. Jg.Div: 252/676/130
369. Leg.Div:92/263/233
7.SS.Div:120/460/33
Brandenburg&Pi.Btl.659: 12/46/15
Jg.Rgt.724:2/3
II/734: 46/84/3
II./724:6/33/9
Kroaten: 40/166/205
A scan of the original German document from which these figures come is attached. Many thanks to "Avijacija bez granica" forum who provided this scan.
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