Tigers on D-Day...

[Darrin]

"I was just trying to point out to Tiki that his 3 coy/pz reg 2 did not specify which bat it belonged to. 1st bat with panthers or 2nd bat with panzer IVs neither of which had tigers."

Dude, 3rd Kompanie DOES specify which Abteilung of a Panzer Regiment. The I Abteilung of a Panzer Regiment contained 1st-4th Kompanie, the II Abteilung contained 5th-8th Kompanie. This is usually the way Kompanie are numbered in a Panzer Regiment.

Oh, and by the way TiKi did NOT say they were Tigers of Das Reich, he said that the crews that were training on the Tigers were FROM Das Reich. My guess is that it was a training unit or something. Sometimes Panzer crews were sent to special training units to be instructed, then sent back to their home unit.

Cheers,

Wolfkin

You got me again 3 coy 1st bat 2nd SS pz reg is panthers not tigers though. If they were training on tigers they were not going to be sent to das reich they were being sent an INDEPENDANT tiger bat. Das riech didn´t have tigers anymore and when they did they didn´t have a whole bat they had a company.

If they were traing on tigers in the normandy area they were training on panzer lehrs tigers or the ss101s tigers them selves. If they were traing on panzer lehrs tigers they were part of PL and might have most likley trained on the tiger IIS because no more T1s were being made. If they were training on TIIs they were not too far from base and stayed behind after normandy. If they were training on TIs from PL they had a grand total of 3 which I don´t have any info from. Although NONE of the other PL units made it to combat until the 8th and then only against the british.

Plus Tikis use of 3 co implies that the entire coy was retrained on tigers as a whole. I could see them selecting individual tank crews but not an entire coy. I´m not going to say anything about the ss101 tiger bat as it would just be a repeat of my earlier post.

Possible YES likly NO at least not with the info I have.

[Tolga Alkan]

Believe me, i know also the the Regiment had 2 Abteilungen with each 4 companies in 1944!!!!!

Was this 3rd company of SS-Pz.Reg.2 heavy tank unit?You mention about Tiger unit so i think it was a schwere panzer company.(Like Wittmann's 13th schwere panzer company in LSSAH before the 101/501)

[Darrin]

Hello!

First of all I agree with Timo's feelings about Zetterling's research. It is very well done but it's based on documents "only". For example there is no hint in his book that II/SSPzRgt 12 actually fielded FIVE kp with PzIV (there are several pictures of vehicles from this kp in the divisional history) because there are no documents about it before D-Day.

Re the PzLD Tigers. There were 3 Tiger IIs, those were the prototypes and blown up outside of Paris in August never having been used in combat. Pz(Fkl)Abt 316 was supossed to be issued with Tiger Is but instead were issued 10 StuGIIIs. No first hand sources but I have read Zetterling, Fey, Jentz and Lefebvre who all touches the subject.

When it comes to the PzVIs they are pretty well accounted for (the discussions on the PzVI in PzLD and Pz(Fkl)Abt 316 have been on and off on the various forums during the last five years) and I personally am satisfied with the conclusions. On the other hand I might well be wrong...

I've haven't heard about others except the members of the Tiger kp training on Tigers. That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

As far as I am aware there are no other interviews with members of SS-DR mentioning this incident. As I said earlier there might well have been individual members of SS-DR along the Normandy coast line at the time. There were NO tank training ground on Normandy (the Ausb units mentioned later were used for security). The Pz Ers-u-Ausb Abt 100 only had French vehicles as did PzAbt 205 and PzAbt 206. The only units issued PzVIs in the West at this point (that I am aware of) were sPzAbt 503, sSSPzAbt 101 and sSSPzAbt 102. The vehicles that belonged to the former PzVI kp in LSSAH (13/SSPzRgt 1) and SS-Dr (8/SS PzRgt 2) were left in the East when they transferred to the West.

There are unsubstantiated claims that JPz Vs from sPzJAbt 653 tried to engage (but had to withdraw) naval vessels along the coast in July but as
far as I'm aware there is no proof of this.

There were indeed naval vessels hit in the vicinity of Omaha but they were hit by coastal artillery belonging to the KM and I am not aware of any that had to withdraw on D-Day. Of course many landing vessels were hit but again I am not aware of any being hit by tank fire. Considering the Allied tendency to claim that every tank encountered was a Tiger it also seems odd that there are absolutely no claims of meeting any around Omaha.

And yes, I am aware that the units sent by SS-HJ were SPW. That why I wrote SPW.

The only explanation I have is that your grand father was indeed in Normandy training with PzVIs but that that was more than year earlier (during the winter of 42-43) and then was observing the landings and mixed the memories up.

Kind rgds
Nick

SS 12 HJ div panzer IVs.

It was supposed to have 101 it had at least 98 on 1 jun 44. It normally would have 22 panzer IVs per coy with 4 coy per bat. The panther bat normally had 79 panthers at 17 per coy. The panther bat had at least 50 on 1 jun 44 but was no where near full str or fully trained. The Panzer jager bat was even more underequipped and undertrained so much so that the bat did not join the div untill the 19th of JUL. On p 351 zetterling says the div had 4 pz IVs coy but gives no reference. This probably came from meyers book which zetterling uses often and regards as very reliable meyer was ops off and eventually div commander of this div. The div facing a shortage of tanks and PJ have tried to maximize the number of coy by making smaller coy of PzIVs. Or if the info is accurte this might have happened sometime after normandy in 44-45. The bat does not need to report numbers of coy just number of tanks op and short term repair. I've read reports of US bat comanders organizing extra coy in thier bats as well. Organizng an extra coy does not mean extra tanks though and soon after combat It would be unlikly the HJ had so many extra op tanks to organize extra coys. After entering combat the HJ PzIVs dropped and slowly went up to a max of 60 op tanks on the 26th of june only to go back down again.

If your only complaint with zetterling is that he says the div had 4 coy of PzIVs and you think it had 5. Seems like a small complaint about a well referenced book.

The 503rd had no tigers on Dday and was in Germany. At least some of your info contridicts the german armies own reports.

[TiKi]

Hi Tolka,

a lot forummebers misunderstand me!!!
Except a few f.e. Timo & Wolfkin!!!!

I DONT want to write the regimentshistory of the SS-Pz.Reg.2 DR new!!!!
1. Abteilung
1.Ko Panther
2.Ko Panther
3.Ko Panther
4.Ko Panther

Thats it!!!!

1. I have never said that the 3rd company had Tigers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They had Panthers and before Panzer IV ! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. I dont know why are all reading that the 3rd had Tigers?!?!?!?!?

Ive already said that my grandpas mothercompany was the 3rd.!!!
He was only attached to the Tigerkompanie (8.th company) in 1943
and the russian sprinoffensive in 1944!!!! when they needed personal that was confirm with this tank!!!!

I have also never said something aobut sSS Pz.Abt 101 & 102!!!!!!!
They were complete Abteilungen and NOT Trainingunits!!!!!!!!!


I hope i could clear some terms now

Best Regards,
TiKi

[Nicklas Fredriksson]

Hello Darrin!

Since I have both Zetterling and Meyer and am very interested in the fighting in the Caen area it's natural enough to compare the two don't you think? The reason SS-HJ had 98 PzIVs was because the rebuilt three into Wirblewind equivalents. This re-organisation took place after June 1 but before June 7 (I believe, and note that this is a theory, this was because the senior officers envisioned fighting with the five motorised PzGr Abts each supported by regimental units and one PzIV kp each and the mechanised PzGr units grouped with I/SS PzRgt 12). There is no indication, and plenty of evidence opposing it, that the Pz kp were amalgated as losses occured, as opposed to for example SS-H which in mid-July re-organised the PzGr Rgt to a single regiment. If I was as interested in ID 709 or PzD 116 would I have found other minor faults? I do not know.
I do want to point out that there are a number of pictures in Meyer's book of PzIVs from 9 kp (pictures of PzIVs marked with turret numbers from ) kp). Also Ostuf Buttner is listed as Chef 9 kp in Meyer's extensive listing of the officers of the division. And there are interviews of former members of 9 kp in Meyer's book.
I have absolutely no beef with Zetterling who has done an excellent and important work to help us understand the German forces in Normandy and, to a certain extent, what happened to them, all I am saying is that there are sources other than documents that can be useful.
And yes I do know that sPzAbt 503 wasn't in Normandy, it was slated to go to OB West though...

Kind rgds
Nick

[stalktiger]

Tiki,
Hey -- this is a great thread. I sure hope that there is a conclusion to this story.
Unfortunately I have nothing to add at this time but I will be posing the question to Tiger veterans that I know. If I come up with any new information I will definately share it with you and the forum.
I would love to be able to correspond with your grandfather if that would be possible.
Send me an e-mail if this would be possible.

[Michael Kenny]

Nicklas, You seem slightly confused about the 'Lehr' Tigers. PzKp.(fkl)316 had, by April 1944 5 Tiger IIs and 3 Tiger Is. Absolutely nothing has surfaced about the fate of the 3 Tiger Is in Normandy but the Tiger IIs did see action in August when advancing US forces reached them South of Paris. They didn't inflict much damage on the Americans and the Tigers were all blown up by the crews.

[White Leopard]

TiKi...

Does your grandfather have any offical paperwork assigning him to training duty in Normandy during June of '44? Or personal letters or diaries that would back up his story? Even personal photographs of him in the area would help.

I have no trouble believing that his story is true. War is chaos and "offical" records can only be trusted so far sometimes. I am thinking of this as a professional historian would.

[Wolfkin]

Yo Darrin!

"You got me again 3 coy 1st bat 2nd SS pz reg is panthers not tigers though. If they were training on tigers they were not going to be sent to das reich they were being sent an INDEPENDANT tiger bat. Das riech didn´t have tigers anymore and when they did they didn´t have a whole bat they had a company. "

Exactly! Is that not what I said? Well, I did word it a little differently, but that is it, in a nutshell! I didn't say anything about Tigers in Das Reich and neither did TiKi. I know all about the Das Reich Tigers and I know they did not have any in Normandy, this is old news to me. What I understood from TiKi and what he said from the beginning...was that it was Panzer crews FROM Das Reich, including his Grandfather, AWAY from the Division TRAINING on Tigers. I understood that the first time I read TiKi's post...I don't know what is so hard to understand... :roll: ...

Also, the 12th SS Panzer Regiment did have 9 Kompanie. There was 1st-4th in I Abteilung with Panthers and 5th-9th in II Abteilung with PzKpfw IV. Source is, The Panzers And The Battle Of Normandy. Pages 11, 108 and 124 mention the 9th Kompanie of II Abteilung. I don't think this was the official organization because the chart on page VI only shows four Kompanie in each Abteiling. But, the division organization table on page 11 shows four Kompanie in I Abteilung and five Kompanie in II Abteilung. I know Zetterling in Normandy 1944 and Jentz in Panzertruppen also say eight Kompanie in 12th SS Panzer Regiment. I believe this is because they all go by the official organization and not the actual.

It was already mentioned that Meyer says there was a 9th Kompanie in his book. In Steel Inferno, Reynolds also shows a table of the organization of the 12th SS Panzer Regiment. It shows a 9th Kompanie and in the text he also speaks of a 9th Kompanie on pages 80, 146, 151, 156, 162, 179 and 187. I don't know about anyone else but I believe I am convinced that there was a 9th Kompanie .

Anyways...

Now, I know some memories may be a little hazy from an older gentlemen, but I think we should all examine this a little further. As a Military Historian and Researcher I find this story amazing. Especially since my main interest is the German Panzerwaffe. It might turn out that these were not Tigers, but if they were, cool!

I am searching through everything I have right now, looking for any clues. I notice something that is interesting. When you look at the Tiger I Distribution Charts you notice quite a few Tigers going to things like "Ersatz-Heer", "WaPreuf" and "Heeres Waffenamt". I wonder what the final destination of some of these Tigers was. Would anyone know? Could this be a clue?

Wether the story is correctly remembered or not, let's have some fun and research it further!!!

Cheers,

Wolfkin

[Nicklas Fredriksson]

Michael, I stand corrected and bow my head in shame!
That's what I get from going from memory...

Kind rgds
Nick

[Tolga Alkan]

Hi Tolka,

Greetings,
I understand you now.
BTW,please don't misspell my name,not Tolka it is Tolga.It often misspelling by German friends

Hope to yourgranpa is good.

[TiKi]

Sorry for misspelling it Tolga!!!!!

My grandpa its on the way to get better with no consequences!!!

Regards,
TiKi

[Tolga Alkan]

Sorry for misspelling it Tolga!!!!!

My grandpa its on the way to get better with no consequences!!!

Regards,
TiKi

I don't have anything,exterior my best wishes on yourgrandfather's health

[HJ Division Grenadier]

This is very interesting Tiki, I would love to hear more about the story.
I can beleive what was said as I know some elememts of nearly all the leading SS Divs were sent elsewhere during the war for one reason or another.

[TiKi]

To White Leopard:
Nop my grandfathers id-papers which could confirm this was taken away from a emigrated german served as a allied officer called with his last name Wittelshöfer!!!!

Have a look at his thread
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6821


At hte moment i have no news,
cause i cant ask my grandpa for more details (he is still in hospital!!)

Regards,
TiKi