High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

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alcius
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 10 Feb 2024 12:09

As per the advice, I put a Topic on Axis History in The Phil Nix SS & Polizei section and I got the answer.

This is Max Ferdinand Spary, born 16 March 1906 in Romania. He started his military career with 5./SS-Panzer-Regiment 11 and ended with 1./SS-Panzer-Abteilung 11 "Hermann von Salza".
I thank Blanusa for the help

Antonio

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 11 Feb 2024 12:36

Hello Antonio,

that's great, so indeed SS-Pz.Abt. in this case :-)

The Panzer-Regiment just exists for a couple of months during the creation of the unit but never was used in the frontline. The Abteilung was formed in autumn of 1943 and went to action early 1944.

So Oscha. Max Spary should be listed here as "Kommandant in 1./SS-Pz.Abt. 11".

Oliver

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 12 Feb 2024 10:44

alcius wrote:
03 Jul 2022 17:50
Sorry for my mistake, it's not Stabsfeldwebel Hellmut Wierschin with 21 kills, but a namesake.
In Langeberger Zeitung - 6 November 1944 - page 2
https://zeitpunkt.nrw/ulbbn/periodical/zoom/1268131
wierschin.png

an Unteroffizier Wierschin is mentioned who destroyed 21 tanks from October to November 1944.
But Wierschin died in April 1944, so it can't be him.
If anyone has any information about this Panzerkommandant Wierschin.
Thank you
Taking into account that many times there are printing errors, I think I have found the real name
Oberfeldwebel Wörsching - Panzerregiment 27
Wierschin/Wörsching ?
I don't know anything else about him

Antonio

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 12 Feb 2024 19:29

Hello Antonio,

hm, I don't think so (good try of course): The newsletter says UNTEROFFIZIER, which is a little bit off from an Oberfeldwebel.

Will have a second look on him!

Oliver

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 15 Feb 2024 12:08

I found on eBay an original document by Hugo Primozic (authenticated by Todd Mueller), in which he writes that he destroyed about 85 enemy tanks.
I don't know how true that is

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144865179265
primozic.png
Antonio
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 18 Feb 2024 05:45

Hugo Primozic had 60 kills over Soviet tanks by the middle of 1943 when he served in a couple of non combat jobs after combat. I don't know when Hugo Primozic returned to combat. Maybe late 1944. Make sense that he scored more kills and by the end of his WWII about 85 kills over Soviet tanks were totaled.
Edward L. Hsiao

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 18 Feb 2024 14:23

Hello,

well, depending on sources he had 60 or 68 tank kills, I think he got the Eichenlaub awarded for 60 tank kills and left the Eastern Front early 1943 (January/February) with 68 tank kills in total.

According to his bio in the Veit Scherzer books on the Ritterkreuzträger der Sturmartillerie he just returend to frontline service on 10.4.1945 with the "Kampfgruppe Burg", a.k.a. Infanteriedivision "Ferdinand von Schill" on the Western Front.

Approx. 85 tank kills, it's possible.

Oliver

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 18 Feb 2024 14:46

alcius wrote:
12 Feb 2024 10:44
alcius wrote:
03 Jul 2022 17:50
Sorry for my mistake, it's not Stabsfeldwebel Hellmut Wierschin with 21 kills, but a namesake.
In Langeberger Zeitung - 6 November 1944 - page 2
https://zeitpunkt.nrw/ulbbn/periodical/zoom/1268131
wierschin.png

an Unteroffizier Wierschin is mentioned who destroyed 21 tanks from October to November 1944.
But Wierschin died in April 1944, so it can't be him.
Taking into account that many times there are printing errors, I think I have found the real name
Oberfeldwebel Wörsching - Panzerregiment 27 (Wierschin/Wörsching ?)
I finally got him! 8-)

Unteroffizier Fritz Wierschin of 3./Pz.Rgt. 31 (5. Pz.Div.)
He indeed was born in Birkenweiler in 1921 so, that's fitting with the newspaper snippet!

He already got the EK2 in Dec. 1943 as an Uffz., but I don't know if he was a tank commander already. The EK1 was awarded to him on 31.10.1944 after the successes mentioned in the Langeberger Zeitung.

Oliver

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 21 Feb 2024 11:52

Great Oliver, another one found.

I found Hauptmann Kopiske of a Branderburghischen Infanteriedivision, (76 Inf, Div, ?).
In three days with his Stug-Kompanie he destroyed 24 tanks and immobilized 3, 1 psw, 18 pak 8 lkw.
During the end of the war the Stug-Kompanie operated with few resources, so I think he achieved several victories.

1945.02.04 Deutsche Zeitung im Ostland
kopiske.png
Antonio
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 22 Feb 2024 23:14

alcius wrote:
21 Feb 2024 11:52
Hauptmann Kopiske of a Branderburghischen Infanteriedivision ...
Hi Antonio,

nice, and this is relatively easy:

Hptm.d.R. Egon Kopiske
Chef Pz.Jg.Kp. 1193 of 93. Inf.Div.

As he had an accident on 7.1.1945 and had to return to Germany the action described in the newspaper must have happened at the End of December 1944 or early January 1945.

On 1.1.1945 the Pz.Jg.Kp. 1193 had 9 Sturmgeschütz IV at hand, 5 of them combat ready.

Oliver

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by RutRum168 » 23 Feb 2024 12:09

What is known about the Martin Schroif case? Are there any significant confirmations of his effectiveness, or on the contrary, confirmations of his fiction?

It is claimed that Schroif destroyed 161 enemy tanks in just 3 months, which makes him both the most productive ace in a short time and the most productive tank ace in general.

As I mentioned, there is an assumption that he was completely invented and mythologized by Nazi propaganda, but then where did the date of death (August 16, 1979) come from? I don't think anyone would aimlessly come up with a death date for a fictional hero 34 years after the end of the war. If this man existed, but his exploits were made up, then what was his real score?

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by pintere » 24 Feb 2024 02:47

RutRum168 wrote:
23 Feb 2024 12:09
What is known about the Martin Schroif case? Are there any significant confirmations of his effectiveness, or on the contrary, confirmations of his fiction?

It is claimed that Schroif destroyed 161 enemy tanks in just 3 months, which makes him both the most productive ace in a short time and the most productive tank ace in general.

As I mentioned, there is an assumption that he was completely invented and mythologized by Nazi propaganda, but then where did the date of death (August 16, 1979) come from? I don't think anyone would aimlessly come up with a death date for a fictional hero 34 years after the end of the war. If this man existed, but his exploits were made up, then what was his real score?

Image
In general I’d be skeptical about claims like his. In the postwar era a lot of numbers of tank kills were tossed around, and it’s a known fact that some of them (eg Carius being attributed 150) were simply made up by fellows like Franz Kurowski.

Martin Schroif is almost certainly real, but as for his kill claims? Unless they were mentioned in a wartime document I’d be inclined to disbelieve them.

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by RutRum168 » 24 Feb 2024 13:42

pintere wrote:
24 Feb 2024 02:47
In general I’d be skeptical about claims like his. In the postwar era a lot of numbers of tank kills were tossed around, and it’s a known fact that some of them (eg Carius being attributed 150) were simply made up by fellows like Franz Kurowski.

Martin Schroif is almost certainly real, but as for his kill claims? Unless they were mentioned in a wartime document I’d be inclined to disbelieve them.
As I found out this morning, the main source of information about Schroif is the book by Willi Fey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willi_Fey), who served with him in the same unit. The book is called "Armor Battles Of The Waffen SS". I'm going to read it later to understand exactly what the author is referring to and what kind of proof this case provides.

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Michael Kenny » 24 Feb 2024 16:31

RutRum168 wrote:
24 Feb 2024 13:42


As I found out this morning, the main source of information about Schroif is the book by Willi Fey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willi_Fey), who served with him in the same unit. The book is called "Armor Battles Of The Waffen SS". I'm going to read it later to understand exactly what the author is referring to and what kind of proof this case provides.
A book where Fey claims an unrealistic number of kills for himself and took credit for a 'high-kill' action (that Unit paperwork attributes to Paul Egger) that does not appear in the corresponding Allied record.

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by pintere » 24 Feb 2024 20:33

RutRum168 wrote:
24 Feb 2024 13:42
pintere wrote:
24 Feb 2024 02:47
In general I’d be skeptical about claims like his. In the postwar era a lot of numbers of tank kills were tossed around, and it’s a known fact that some of them (eg Carius being attributed 150) were simply made up by fellows like Franz Kurowski.

Martin Schroif is almost certainly real, but as for his kill claims? Unless they were mentioned in a wartime document I’d be inclined to disbelieve them.
As I found out this morning, the main source of information about Schroif is the book by Willi Fey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willi_Fey), who served with him in the same unit. The book is called "Armor Battles Of The Waffen SS". I'm going to read it later to understand exactly what the author is referring to and what kind of proof this case provides.
Yeah… Fey is a pretty unreliable source by all accounts. Besides, it’s inconceivable that someone like Schroif could destroy so many tanks and yet not even be awarded the German Cross in Gold. Chances are his successes in real life were way less than what Fey claims.

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