High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

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alcius
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 26 Feb 2024 11:10

Hello
I found an article about Hauptmann Helmut Hudel - Chef 1./Panzer-Regiment 7.
From what I understand he got the Ritterkreuz for destroying 23 enemy tanks, damaging 7, and capturing 6 paks and 5 guns, by the end of January 1942.
Furthermore, at the beginning we read that from June to the end of December 1941 he destroyed 17 tanks, damaged 6 and destroyed 8 guns.
I'll just put the final piece.
Gießener Anzeiger : General-Anzeiger für Oberhessen Mittwoch, 17.06.1942
https://www.deutsche-digitale-bibliothe ... ssuepage=3
hudel.png
Antonio
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Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 26 Feb 2024 20:19

RutRum168 wrote:
23 Feb 2024 12:09
What is known about the Martin Schroif case?
... there is an assumption that he was completely invented and mythologized by Nazi propaganda ...
Gentlemen!

1) let's start with the simplest: Martin Schroif was a real person of course, no Avatar or Pseudonym. From the Führerliste which most of you should know:

Schroif, Martin Ustuf.
born 22. 2.15, Gressenich, SS-No. 287 993 (died 16.8.1979)
3.45 with 2./s.SS-Pz.Abt. 502
7.44 with 2./s.SS-Pz.Abt. 102 as Ustuf.
7.41 with Kraderk.Zug /SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 10 as Oscha.
9.39 with 10./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 3 (correct: SS-Rgt. Deutschland) as Uscha.
10.36 with 10./Sta. Deutschland as SS-Mann

And: EK 1st class on 1.8.1944 (awarded from II. SS-Panzerkorps)

2) No Nazi-propaganda, because: Have you ever seen any newspaper, leaflet, Wehrmachtsbericht or such mentioning his name? No, he wasn't a Nazi Propaganda hero (they missed him, obviously) :-)

3) the hard facts:

The German standard book on Tiger units from back in time, "Tiger" by Kühne/Klein, and also the recent reprint and of course the work of Wolfgang Schneider "Tiger im Kampf II" mentions the actions of 2./s.SS-Pz.Abt. 102 during the Normandy fights in detail.

The basis for this information is the company's surviving battle report, also in the German Archives in Freiburg (file RS 21/17, old file no RS 4/1512).

During a visit of mine many, many years ago, maybe 2008, I just made the following (short) notes, nothing more, as these facts are well known from the books. Also, it was not allowed to do photographs of the documents at that time:

RS 4 / 1512 KTB s.SS-Pz.Abt. 102
Gefechtsbericht 2. Kp. vom 10.08.1944 durch Fhr. Ustuf. Schroif

01.07.44 mit 8 Tiger (211, 212, 213, 214, 224, 231, 233, 221) auf Marsch bis Bereitstellung
09.07.44 Tiger 211 auf Marsch ausgefallen
10.07.44 Chef Hstuf. Endemann, 1. Zug Ustuf. Schroif, 3. Zug Ustuf. Rathsack Angriff Höhe 112 mit 7 Tigern
213 (Uschaf. Piller) wg. Paktreffer zurück, 231 (Ustuf. Rahtsack) = 1 Pz, 212 (Ustuf. Schroif) = 2 Pz, 1 Pak
221 (Hstuf. Endemann) vermißt
11.07.44 Angriff Höhe 112
05.15h 212 (Ustuf. Schroif) = 2 Pz, dann 06.00h Antreten, 212 (Schroif) = 1 Pz, insgesamt 8 s.Pak, 15 Kfz.
232 (Uschaf. Winter) Paktreffer erhalten
12.07.44 Sicherung 212, 214, 233
13.07.44 Sciherung 212, 213, 233
14.07.44 Sicherung 212, 214, 222, 223, 224, 231, 233, 234, 241
15.07.44 Sicherung dto.
abends 212 (Uschaf. Kuhlemann) Ari-Treffer, Ladeschütze schw. verwundet
16.07.44 Sicherung 212, 222, 223, 224, 233, 234, 241
17.07.44 Sicherung 212, 222, 223, 224, 231, 233, 234, 241, 242
18.07.44 Sicherung 224, 231, 234, 241, 242
224 (Uschaf. Oberhuber) = 3 Pz, 1 Pak
19.07.44 Sicherung 212, 214, 222, 231, 233, 234, 241, 242
20.07.44 Sicherung 212, 213, 214, 222, 223, 224, 231, 233, 234, 241, 242, abends durch 1. Kp. abgelöst
21.07.44 Instandsetzungen
22.07.44 abends Alarm, 212, 214, 231, 233, 234, 241, 242
2. Zug = 3 Pak bei Feuguerolles
23.07.44 Einsatz 211, 212, 213, 222, 231, 234, 241, 242
214 (Uschaf. Kuhlemann) Ari-Treffer in Laufwerk, 08.30h 241 (Ustuf. Schroif) = 3 Pz, 231 (Uschaf. Rodinger)
= 2 Pz, 212 (Uschaf. Münster) = 1 Pz
24.07.44 Einsatz 212, 222, 231, 233, 234, 241, 242
25.07.44 Einsatz 212, 222, 231, 233, 234, 241, 242 = 3 Pz, 4 Pak, 10 LKW
11.30h Paktreffer 222 (Uschaf. Oberhuber), Funker tot
26.07.44 Einsatz 212, 214, 231, 233, 234, 241, 242
27.07.44 Sicherung dto.
28.07.44 Sicherung 212, 214, 223, 231, 232, 233, 234, 241, 242
29.07.44 Sicherung 211, 212, 214...
Blatt 29.-31.07. keine Angaben oder fehlt (kein Einsatz?)
Juli 1944 18 Pz, 15 Pak, 25 z.Teil gep. Fzg. durch Kp.
01.08.44 von Gegner gelöst
02.08.44 1. Kp. Pz.-Kämpfe bei Chenedolle / Ustuf. Loritz = 1 Pak als Spitzenzugfhr. Raum Vire
03.08.44 11.00h 232 (Ustuf. Loritz) = 3 Cromwell 3 km nördl. Vire
13.00h 232 (Ustuf. Loritz) = 1 M4, dann 2 weitere Pz
dann 241 (Ustuf. Schroif) = 2 Pz, 234 (Uschaf. Streng) = 2 Pz, dann ausgefallen Laufwerkbeschuß
Nm noch 242 (Uschaf. Rodinger) = 1 Pz, 233 (Uschaf. Harlander) = 1 Pz, 1 Pak, 213 (Oschaf. Piller) = 2 Pz,
2 SPW, 1 Krad, 214 (Uschaf. Kuhlemann) = 3 Pz, 223 (Hschaf. Rosowski) abgeschossen, 7 Treffer
04.08.44 Sicherung mit 7 Tigern 241, 242, 212, 213, 214, 233, 232
232 (Ustuf. Loritz) = 2 Pz, 242 (Uschaf. Rodinger) = 3 Pz, 1 Späh, 212 (Uschaf. Münster) = 1 Pz
05.08.44 Sicherung 212, 213, 214, Nachmittags 212 durch Ari-Treffer ausgefallen
06.08.44 Sicherung 213, 214, Ausfall durch Ari- und Paktreffer, abends durch 242, 224 abgelöst
07./08.08.44 Sicherung 242, 224
09.08.44 Verlegung 241, 242, 212, 213, 224, 232
10.08.44 Einsatz 241, 242, 212, 234 bei 271. Div., Abwehr Pz.Angriffe durch 2 Wagen (ohne Abschüsse)
11.08.44 Einsatz 241, 212, 213, 224, 233, 242 bei 271. Div.
232 (Ustuf. Loritz) = 4 Pz
12.08.44 Einsatz 241, 242, 211, 212, 213, 224, 231, 232 bei 271. Div.
232 (Uschaf. Moldenhauer) gefallen 2 Paktreffer
231 (Ustuf. Loritz) = 5 Pz, 1 Späh, 242 (Uschaf. Rodinger) = 1 Pz, 212 (Uschaf. Münster) = 1 Pz
dann 211 (Uschaf. Günther) = 3 von 5 Pz, 2 Pz drehen ab, dann 231 (Ustuf. Loritz) = 1 Pz
13.08.44 Einsatz 241, 212, 231, 2 Verwundete
14.08.44 Einsatz 241, 212, 231
212 (Uschaf. Münster) Paktreffer Turm, Ausfälle, dann 231 (Ustuf. Loritz) und xxx (Ustuf. Schroif) je 1 Pz
dann 231 abgeschossen, Besatzung gefallen
14.00h 222 (Uschaf. Oberhuber) eingetroffen
abends 241 (Ustuf. Schroif) = 1 Pz
15.08.44 Einsatz 241, 222
222 (Uschaf. Oberhuber) = 1 Pz, 19.00h ausgefallen
16.08.44 Einsatz 241
17.08.44 Einsatz 241
241 (Ustuf. Schroif) = 1 Späh, 3 LKW
18.08.44 Einsatz 241, schleppt 124 ab bis Abaye, abends SPR
19.08.44 Durchbruch Ostuf. Kalls (1. Kp.), Ustuf. Schroif (2 Paktreffer), Uschaf. Glagow (auf Tiger Schroif aufgelaufen)
Einsatz 222 (Uschaf. Oberhuber) und 214 (Uschaf. Kuhlemann), 1 Pz durch 222 abgeschossen
insgesamt im Juli/August 1944 = 61 Pz, 19 Pak, 34 LKW etc. durch 2./102 abgeschossen


Unfortunately, the Gefechtsbericht doesn't mention the tank commanders responsible for the successes of 2./102 on 25.7.1944. 3 claimed tank kills still have to be assigned.

So, as Martin Schroif wasn't a tanker before the Normandy fights, he "starts" his frontline service with tanks just than, and you can say that he had destroyed = 12 tanks during that period (and got the EK1 after his 8th tank kill). He served on with 2./s.SS-Pz.Abt. 502 in the 1945 fights and might/should have added some tank kills to his score of course.

But NO, not 161 tanks, some people post-war most probably tried to count SOMETHING, maybe Waffen-SS enthusiasts ... 8O

I have Martin Schroif within my own list with "mindestens 15" (could have been 20 or even more taking the fightings in 1945 into accout).

I want to add some comments here:
A) The 2./s.SS-Pz.Abt. 102 just got two EK1 for the Normandy fightings, the second person was Uscha. Ernst Streng (1.9.1944).
B) You can see, that Ustuf. Hans Loritz also was highly successful vs. tanks, with 19 tank kills before his death on 14.8.1944. He just got an EK2 for that on 1.9.1944.
C) The "famous" Uscha. Willi Fey from 1./s.Pz.Abt. 102 just got an EK1 on 14.9.1944, well after the fights, so ... :?
D) These ominous internet lists also list Oberhuber as a tank ace (127 kills). He's up here too, with 5 tank kills as you can see! He was also with s.SS-Pz.Abt. 502 in 1945, but...

Of course, as Micheal Kenny wrote and will write every time this question pops up: tank kill claims and real tank kills (total losses) are far apart.

But well, for me it's just fun research, started (like most of us, probably) as an teen creating some list of my own with an ink pen :D It's important for me that they are OFFICIAL CLAIMS, based on combat reports or recommendations for higher awards.


Oliver

Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 26 Feb 2024 20:57

alcius wrote:
26 Feb 2024 11:10
Hauptmann Helmut Hudel - Chef 1./Panzer-Regiment 7.
Hello Antonio,

nice find but hm ..., I'm not really sure to be true. It sounds like the success of his company (1./Pz.Rgt. 7), with some of the tank kills by himself, but not all of them. I'm not 100% certain, but ...

The first sequence says: "... mit seinen Panzerschützen in der Zeit von Juni bis Dezember 1941 14 feindliche Schwerpanzer, drei mittlere Panzer sowie acht Geschütze vernichtet und sechs Panzer schwer beschädigt hatte".

That means he and his men = his company.

Than, additionally: "... seit Ende Januar 1942 23 Schwerpanzer abgeschossen, sieben beschädigt, sowie sechs Pak und fünf Geschütze erbeutet."

This also should be the company's success, but with an unknown number of tank kills scored by Hptm. Hudel, as he sometimes just worked with two or three tanks, as we can read.

Total success for 1./Pz.Rgt. 7 therefore: 40 tanks destroyed, 13 tanks damaged.

Please keep in mind that his company was equipped with Panzer III 5 cm short, not the best tank killers in the world. By chance I have him in my own list with "10 mind.", which could be a fairly accurate number.


Oliver

alcius
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 29 Feb 2024 11:25

Thanks Oliver
I can never understand if the victories are single or group.
Luckily there's someone to help me.


As for Scrhoif, he is part of that group of "aces" who probably inserted other Targets; armored vehicles, pak, cannons, trucks, etc to make up the numbers; and which are included in all the lists from years ago.
Besides him, there are Oberhuber and Fey, Piepgrass, Sachs, Mobius, Scholl. all with fake victories.
At least we know about these that they existed, but I haven't found anything about others, these are probably also fake.
It has recently become known about Arno Giesen that he never existed.
But these ???????
Roeder, Paul, (Pz"Lehr"Div.) – 49,
Herzig, Johann, (s.PzAbt.508) (Tiger I) – 36,
Dieter, Gert, (Pz"Lehr"Div.) – 36,
Ustuf. Dieter, - 50+, SS. Pz.Abt. 103,
Oskar Geiner – 50+, SS. Pz.Abt. 103
Bromann, Johann,- Pz.Abt.506 – 66
Stubaf, Paul, - (s.PzAbt.508) (Tiger I) – 48

Antonio

Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 29 Feb 2024 19:03

alcius wrote:
29 Feb 2024 11:25
As for Scrhoif, he is part of that group of "aces" who probably inserted other Targets; armored vehicles, pak, cannons, trucks, etc to make up the numbers; and which are included in all the lists from years ago.
Hi Antonio,

oh, no ..., it wasn't HE who added these numbers, but some "accurate" scribbler after the war.

Please don't blame Mr. Schroif for what a teenager came up with 8O

Oliver

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 29 Feb 2024 19:07

alcius wrote:
29 Feb 2024 11:25
But these ???????
Roeder, Paul, (Pz"Lehr"Div.) – 49,
Herzig, Johann, (s.PzAbt.508) (Tiger I) – 36,
Dieter, Gert, (Pz"Lehr"Div.) – 36,
Ustuf. Dieter, - 50+, SS. Pz.Abt. 103,
Oskar Geiner – 50+, SS. Pz.Abt. 103
Bromann, Johann,- Pz.Abt.506 – 66
Stubaf, Paul, - (s.PzAbt.508) (Tiger I) – 48
Hi Antonio,

I have no research and no look at any files, I immediately can say here: all BOGUS

Apart from Brommann of course, which should be Ustuf. Karl Brommann from s.SS-Pz.Abt. 503, which of course had 66 tank kills according to the Wehrmachtsbericht of 10.4.1945.

All the others, just delete them if you ever have thought about to check them further!

Oliver

alcius
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 01 Mar 2024 16:56

Hi Oliver, that's what I wanted to say.
The blame lies with the "great historians" who believed or invented these stories.
It seems strange to me that so many panzeraces sites still put these names, now with the Internet if you can't find any news it's obviously a fake.
PS: I had already eliminated these "panzerkommant".
Antonio

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 07 Mar 2024 16:41

Uffz. Ianitz - 5 enemy tanks in two days.
I don't know anything else, name, weapon and department.
Erzgebirgischer Volksfreund : mit Schwarzenberger Tageblatt
Montag, 30.04.1945
ianitz.png
Antonio
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 07 Mar 2024 21:05

alcius wrote:
07 Mar 2024 16:41
Uffz. Ianitz - 5 enemy tanks in two days.
Hello Antonio ...

this is tough, as it's very, very late in the war. I even can't give you a full name or so, or an identification of the unit, BUT, it may be possible to narrow it down:

Given the location Görlitz and Bautzen, at that time period the Pz.Gren.Div. Brandenburg fought right in that area. So I'm sure the newspaper did it wrong with "Brandenburgische Panzerdivision". That leaves the armoured units Panzerjäger-Abteilung Brandenburg or Sturmartillerie-Brigade Großdeutschland (attached to Division Brandenburg) as possibilities for Uffz. Janitz.

Please note: Janitz, with J, not I.

Also the newspaper claimes "... am gleichen Tage ..." (the same day), but it's some distance between the two spots mentioned, even if the first action was to the WEST of Bautzen, the second fight to the EAST of Görlitz ...? More probably two different occasions, close together (dates).

I./Pz.Rgt. Brandenburg was with Pz.Gren.Div. Kurmark with their Panther tanks.
II./Pz.Rgt. Brandenburg still hadn't joined Pz.Gren.Div. Brandenburg as far as I know.

So Uffz. Janitz must have used an Sturmgeschütz III or IV (mixed inventory, 11 + 7 combat ready on 15.4.45) of Pz.Jg.Abt. Brandenburg or
one of the 15 combat ready Panzer IV/70(A) of Stu.Art.Brig. Großdeutschland (they also had an single Stug III).

Oliver

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 09 Mar 2024 11:50

Thanks Oliver,
great as always

Antonio

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 09 Mar 2024 11:57

Gastolli wrote:
17 Dec 2022 19:04
Hello,

here's another one, Pak-Geschützführer Jonca, I don't know any details for that man:

Znaimer Tagblatt 07.11.44 -01 - Jonca, Pak.jpg

I can't find him within the Volksbund Kriegsgräberfürsorge database, so he might have survived the war.

Oliver
I had answered

I had found it too, and the only one I've found is:
Unteroffizier Richard Jonca
2. Batteries, Heeres-Küsten-Artillerie-Abteilung 1001
Ehrenblattspange - 15 October 1944
But I don't know if it's him.

Now I found 2 new articles that confirm it.
In both the name is Janko, but it is a misprint.
The date of the action is written in the first: 6-7 August.
In the second it is written: in einer HeeresKüstenArtillerieAbteilung.
Therefore it should be Unteroffizier Richard Jonca.
janko1.png
janko2.png
Antonio
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 09 Mar 2024 15:43

alcius wrote:
09 Mar 2024 11:57
Unteroffizier Richard Jonca
2. Batteries, Heeres-Küsten-Artillerie-Abteilung 1001
Hi Antonio,

o.k., that of course is fitting, and adding the newspaper article from Znaimer Tagblatt I have found in 2022 (post #793 of this thread)
viewtopic.php?p=2446811&sid=9622e3d55cd ... 3#p2446811

this gives us a clear picture:

Uffz. Richard Jonca from Ehrenfeld, Krs. Cosel, Oberschlesien
He also was mentioned in the Wehrmachtsbericht of 9.8.1944 (here also: name wrong as Janko)!

Action leading to his Ehrenblatt was "bei Putki vom 5. bis 7.8.44" within the 11. Inf.Div. sector.

Lexikon-der-Wehrmacht mentions just 3x 2 12,2 cm guns of this Abteilung, but no Pak, so that's the reason I dismissed your proposal from 2022 :(

Richard Jonca isn't listed in the Volksbund database, so might have survived WW2.

Oliver

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 12 Mar 2024 11:05

Oberfeldwebel Krumm - Stug/Pz.Rgt. "Hermann Göring" - in 4 days destroyed 2 enemy tanks and 10 anti-tanks.

Hamburger Tageblatt - Montag, 28 August 1944
krumm.png
I found this news on the Internet:
Ofberfeldwebel Artur Krumm, 9.Sturmgeschütz/Fallschirm-Panzer-Regt. "Hermann Göring" - Salerno, Monte Cassino,Weichsel.
Denn bereits am 11. März 1944 erfolgt die Verleihung des Eisernen Kreuz 2. Klasse
Für besondere Tapferkeit erhält er am 17. August 1944 das EK1 verliehen.

The action described is probably that of the EK1.
Having fought in Salerno and Montecassino, I think he has achieved other victories.

Antonio
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 14 Mar 2024 00:34

alcius wrote:
12 Mar 2024 11:05
Oberfeldwebel Krumm - Stug/Pz.Rgt. "Hermann Göring" ...
Hello Antonio,

I didn't know this men yet, but a nice find indeed!

At that time the "Sturmgeschütze" of the Hermann Göring were Panzer IV L48 (Jagdpanzer IV).

I have found the Forum entry too:
https://dokumentenforum.de/forum/thread ... -monte-ca/

You can see that his "early life" had nothing to do with Panzer or Sturmgeschütze, one of many newcomers to this branch with the HG Division. Also, he earned the KVK 2. Klasse early in 1944, an good indication that he wasn't an tank commander at that time, but did stuff duties. And as the Germans weren't that successful against allied armour in Italy, I didn't expect a high number of tank kills for Artur Krumm.

Anyway, a nice find for sure!

Oliver

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 20 Mar 2024 11:47

Hauptmann Robert Hofstetter - 2./Pz.Rgt.36 - 10 panzerkills
As usual I can't understand if the victories are single or group victories.

https://digital.blb-karlsruhe.de/blbz/p ... stetter%22
Der Führer. 207 (29.7.1942)
hofstetter.png
Antonio
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