High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 6036
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Oct 2010 20:57

general g wrote: Wittmann's kill number is in line with those of other tiger aces.
Claiming at least twice as many kills as were made would certainly put him 'in line' with other German tank aces!

User avatar
general g
Banned
Posts: 615
Joined: 17 May 2010 10:45

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by general g » 20 Oct 2010 07:00

Michael Kenny wrote:
general g wrote: Wittmann's kill number is in line with those of other tiger aces.
Claiming at least twice as many kills as were made would certainly put him 'in line' with other German tank aces!
Untrue as has been pointed out before.there is nothing abnormal in the number of tanks claimed as disabled.simply the inevitable result of the superirity of the tiger tank.a fact you choose to ignore.

User avatar
Christoph Awender
Forum Staff
Posts: 6676
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 17:22
Location: Austria

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Christoph Awender » 20 Oct 2010 08:12

generalg,

You might have come through with these kind of posts in other sections of the forum. In my section you will not come through for even a second. Your typical posts like "Untrue as has been pointed out before..." are not tolerated by me! As yesterday.. this is said for the first and last time. If you disagree come up with reliable sourced facts. Regarding the case Wittmann it is proofed by allied documents that the claims made by the germans (building the base for the myth Wittmann) are highly utopical ans solely claimed to have a propaganda hero which is still cheered at today by some fanboys.
THAT is profen fact as I know these documents and Michael researched them into depth.
As said yesterday we are no newbies in this business so treat us accordingly. We know that claims naturally cannot be realistic but we pointed out that the myth of Wittman is based on such unrealistic numbers.

Obviousy you don´t like the way the forum is run and are literally spitting on us so I would recommend one of the hundreds of other possibilities in the internet. I was not waiting for you and surely don´t want to read more of your childish posts.
I hope again like yesterday that you received AND understood the message and act accordingly.

/Christoph

User avatar
general g
Banned
Posts: 615
Joined: 17 May 2010 10:45

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by general g » 20 Oct 2010 13:02

Christoph Awender wrote:generalg,

You might have come through with these kind of posts in other sections of the forum. In my section you will not come through for even a second. Your typical posts like "Untrue as has been pointed out before..." are not tolerated by me! As yesterday.. this is said for the first and last time. If you disagree come up with reliable sourced facts. Regarding the case Wittmann it is proofed by allied documents that the claims made by the germans (building the base for the myth Wittmann) are highly utopical ans solely claimed to have a propaganda hero which is still cheered at today by some fanboys.
THAT is profen fact as I know these documents and Michael researched them into depth.
As said yesterday we are no newbies in this business so treat us accordingly. We know that claims naturally cannot be realistic but we pointed out that the myth of Wittman is based on such unrealistic numbers.

Obviousy you don´t like the way the forum is run and are literally spitting on us so I would recommend one of the hundreds of other possibilities in the internet. I was not waiting for you and surely don´t want to read more of your childish posts.
I hope again like yesterday that you received AND understood the message and act accordingly.

/Christoph
I always source what I say as you well know from other discussions.And I am not obliged to repeat an argument I already had before in an another discussion with Michael Kenny.There are also some facts that may be supposed to be common knowledge for anybody that is no newbie.I suppose therefore I do not have to prove the superiority of the Tiger tank over the T 34.Put a Tiger tank in the hands of a skilled tankcommander with a good gunner and the endresult is a high number of disabled T 34.The scores of german tank aces mostly obtained on the eastern front are therefore completely realistic.
Your opinion about Wittman is not shared by everybody and that is an understatement.His reputation was made on the easytern front by the way .So the whole stuff about Villers Bocage shows only that particularly english and american users are too focused on the western front.It is surprising that an austrian makes the same mistake.
I will together with many others continue to exercise my right to admire german tankaces including Wittmann.
If you want that supported by sources then you will get them.

User avatar
Christoph Awender
Forum Staff
Posts: 6676
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 17:22
Location: Austria

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Christoph Awender » 20 Oct 2010 13:11

generalg,

I do not care which arguments you had with Michael somewhere else. THIS discussion was started by YOU reacting on a thread where we pointed out that the "official" numbers of Wittmann at Villers Bocage are incorrect. That they are incorrect is a profen fact. Here was never a discussion about the effectiveness of a Tiger tank etc...

Stop playing the same games with me as you did in other sections. If you have documents proofing that the high numbers of Viller Bocage are correct then post them. Otherwise stay silent. Further posts by you adding nothing to THIS discussion just telling us how wrong we and how right you are will be deleted immediately.
I repeat it... you are not welcome here, I don´t like your way of acting here and it would be good if you look for another place to celebrate your oppinion.

/Christoph

User avatar
Christoph Awender
Forum Staff
Posts: 6676
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 17:22
Location: Austria

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Christoph Awender » 20 Oct 2010 13:43

Another post by "generalg" adding nothing to the subject just telling us how right he and how wrong all others are was removed.

/Christoph

User avatar
Christoph Awender
Forum Staff
Posts: 6676
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 17:22
Location: Austria

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Christoph Awender » 20 Oct 2010 18:39

Another post by generalg just to provoke artificial discussions was removed.

/Christoph

User avatar
general g
Banned
Posts: 615
Joined: 17 May 2010 10:45

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by general g » 20 Oct 2010 18:55

Christoph Awender wrote:Another post by generalg just to provoke artificial discussions was removed.

/Christoph
That you do not like discussions is very clear.

Hardigan
Member
Posts: 1105
Joined: 14 Feb 2003 20:51
Location: The Netherlands

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Hardigan » 18 Feb 2011 23:19

Hardigan wrote:Alois Kalss (s.SS-Pz.Abt.502) (Tiger) had 42+ Kills when he received his KC in '44 !
Does somebody know what his total was at the end of the war ?
I can add that this data comes from his Knight's Cross recommendation written by Abteilungskommandeur Hans Weiss on July 20 , 1944 .
His total must be far above the 50 Panzerkills !

Hardigan
Member
Posts: 1105
Joined: 14 Feb 2003 20:51
Location: The Netherlands

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Hardigan » 06 Jun 2011 18:32

Hardigan wrote:This Tiger was posted in the Wehrmacht Awards Forum with the info that it was of "DR" in Normandy , the turret number is "132" which was around that time of known ace SS-Uscha. Ernst Glagow of s.SS-PzAbt.102 so it must be his Tiger with 51+ kills.
Glagow , Ernst , 51+ ''DR'' Tiger Ace Normandy.jpg
According to another source and especially the son of SS-Rttf. Rudolf Wüster it was SS-Oscha. Walter Knecht who was the Commander of Tiger "132" with Wüster as gunner . So Walter Knecht had 51+ kills . It's not known how much Glagow had.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 6036
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Michael Kenny » 06 Jun 2011 19:13

I presume if someone knew the gunner they would also know the number of kills claimed?

Hardigan
Member
Posts: 1105
Joined: 14 Feb 2003 20:51
Location: The Netherlands

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Hardigan » 06 Jun 2011 19:47

I only know that Wüster was one of the gunners of Knecht and that he had shot 12 himself (10 in Normandy and 2 in Germany).

Gastolli
Member
Posts: 88
Joined: 09 Feb 2008 17:42
Location: Trier, Germany

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 06 Jun 2011 22:37

In the magnificent book "Tiger!" from Warnick/Cazenave you can find the following entry re. the photo of Tiger "132" with the 51 kill rings:

Anfang September 1944. Raum Köln. Als einziger Tiger der schw. SS-Pz.Abt. 102 schaffte der "132" den langen Rückmarsch aus Nordfrankreich! Stellvertretend trägt dieser nun die gesamten, an der Normandiefront erzielten, Abschüsse von Kalss' 1./s.SS-Pz.Abt. 102!

So, this is the summary of the 1. Company's score in the Normandy !

Oliver

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 6036
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Michael Kenny » 06 Jun 2011 22:56

Compared to 2nd kp who only claimed 61 kills.
1st kp twice as good or just benefited from Fey's phantom kills?

Edit:
mixed up 1st and 3rd kp, ignore post!
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 06 Jun 2011 23:58, edited 2 times in total.

Hardigan
Member
Posts: 1105
Joined: 14 Feb 2003 20:51
Location: The Netherlands

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Hardigan » 06 Jun 2011 23:30

Gastolli wrote:So, this is the summary of the 1. Company's score in the Normandy !
Impossible. The Battalion claimed about 240 kills for Normandy , Kalss 1./s.SS-PzAbt.102 was the most successful unit with the best Panzer-Aces in it.

Return to “Heer, Waffen-SS & Fallschirmjäger”