High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

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Michael Kenny
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Michael Kenny » 27 Aug 2018 16:06

offizier1916 wrote:
27 Aug 2018 14:31
Another excellent tank commander
What tanks were in 1./SS-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 12?

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by j keenan » 27 Aug 2018 19:52

Michael Kenny wrote:
27 Aug 2018 16:06
offizier1916 wrote:
27 Aug 2018 14:31
Another excellent tank commander
What tanks were in 1./SS-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 12?
1./SS-Panzerjäger-Abt.12
Jagdpanzer IV L/48
supposedly Knocked out 6 Shermans C Squadron Ist Northamptonshire Yeomanry British 33rd Armoured Brigade
2nd Armoured Rgt. Polish 1st Armoured Brigade lost 40 tanks in 15 mins around St.Aignan-de-Cramesnil
All backed up by the above's units diarys.
With tigers of 101 knocking out a few

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Michael Kenny » 27 Aug 2018 20:30

j keenan wrote:
27 Aug 2018 19:52

All backed up by the above's units diarys.
Not so.
I believe we are using Szambver as the main source here and he in turn sources 'Reynolds pg 278' but it is in fact page 236/237 of 'Steel Inferno' English hardback.

Further Reynolds does not confirm the numbers posted.

Does anyone ever check the citations?
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 27 Aug 2018 21:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Dwight Pruitt
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Dwight Pruitt » 27 Aug 2018 20:38

What was the German criteria for confirming kills?

Michael Kenny
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Michael Kenny » 27 Aug 2018 21:06

Dwight Pruitt wrote:
27 Aug 2018 20:38
What was the German criteria for confirming kills?
A very good question. The mythical 'confirmed kill' and the even more illusory 'unconfirmed kill'.
The fact that raw crew claims were always discounted when collating total kill numbers should give you a clue as to how 'confirmed' they really were.
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 27 Aug 2018 21:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Michael Kenny » 27 Aug 2018 21:15

The Szamveber book

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Waffen-SS-Armo ... 1907677240

is considered a scholarly work but some of his citations are well short of that mark.

Take citation 24 on page 168 used to confirm the claim 'the Polish Ist Armoured Division lost 40 tanks in just 15 mins.

This is the first source an Osprey book from 1982:
mar2018132.jpg
and this is the cited sentence:
mar2018131gh.jpg
The second source is another Osprey book but this time from 2007:
mar2018134.jpg
again the cited sentence:
mar2018133b.jpg
I would bet my house that source 2 is just re-quoting source 1.

That is why you should always check citations.
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by offizier1916 » 27 Aug 2018 21:51

Kenney tried the same with Erwin Bachmann.

Bachmann:
I rode ahead in the sidecar of Sauerwein’s motorcyle.At the entrance to Herlisheim,i encountered with two Panther of the 3.company,Unterscharführer Mühlbradt was with them.I learned that American tanks were in the town.I wanted to scout myself.The two panthers were give to covering fire and follow.

I rode with the motorcycle to a junction in the road,stopped,and directed the Panzers to secure one road each.I went ahead on foot along the road on the right to scout further.After some 50m,as I reached a bend in the road,a Sherman opened fire.I ran back to the motorcycle,picked up a panzerfaust,and reached a house from whose window i could see the main street,which i ran diagonally.I spottedtwo Shermans on the street.I knocked out one from a distance of 30 m with my panzerfaust.Then i ran back to my covering Panthers,deciding on a plan of action.

I quickly briefed the two Panzer commanders:Panzer 2 was continue to cover the road on the right:pulling ahead to the bend and opening fire when Panzer 1 started out.Panzer 1(Mühlbradt),with me,was to drive up to road on the left,turret at 3 o’clock,and immediately open fire when the junction was reached amd the gunner had a field of fire on the crossing road.Everything went according to plan.The two Panzer crews cooperated in first-rate fashion.Panzer 2 opened fire while Panzer 1 raced into the junction and knocked out the first Sherman.More US tanks were knocked out and a white flag appeared.

I stopped the fire and walked forwad.An American Officer offered to surrender.I requested that his men put down their weapons in front of me.When sixty Americans had put down their weapons,twents German soldiers who had been in US captivity were added.I asked the Americans if they were crews of knocked out tanks.The Us officer explained that they were the crews of the tanks which had not been knocked out and pointed on a farm to left of the road where four Shermans sat,their guns facing the road.He said the other tanks were a little further down.That was suprise for us.We had to keep calm.I demanded speedy action.I had the American tank drivers step forwad and ordered them to drive the Shermans to Offendorf,accompanied by one of the rearmed German soldiers.I felt beter when the tank column set off.I advised to Abteilung in Offendorf of the approaching captured Shermans and requested more of our own Panzer to come to Herlisheim and pick up another forty-eight prisoners.The total was:twelve captured Sherman tanks and sixty prisoners.I deployed my own two Panthers forwad to the edge of Herlisheim.Thus,my two Panthers archived nine kills.After reinforcements had arrived,i was ordered back to Abteilung command post at Offendorf
Image

Image
Last edited by offizier1916 on 27 Aug 2018 23:02, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by j keenan » 27 Aug 2018 21:56

Michael Kenny wrote:
27 Aug 2018 20:30
j keenan wrote:
27 Aug 2018 19:52

All backed up by the above's units diarys.
Not so.
I believe we are using Szambver as the main source here and he in turn sources 'Reynolds pg 278' but it is in fact page 236/237 of 'Steel Inferno' English hardback.

Further Reynolds does not confirm the numbers posted.

Does anyone ever check the citations?
I agree thats why I used the word supposedly as I know your knowledge on a Allied losses is the best out there in my opinion

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by j keenan » 27 Aug 2018 21:59

Also another one of the worst books out there Blood, Steel and Myth: The II.SS-Panzer-Korps and the Road to Prochorowka, July 1943
by George M. Nipe

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Cult Icon » 27 Aug 2018 22:06

j keenan wrote:
27 Aug 2018 21:56

I agree thats why I used the word supposedly as I know your knowledge on a Allied losses is the best out there in my opinion
The problem here is that some, myself included, don't trust him given his long track record on the internet. I'd rather come up with my own conclusions.

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Cult Icon » 27 Aug 2018 22:36

offizier1916 wrote:
27 Aug 2018 14:31
thank you cult icon. didnt know about Roy. Another excellent tank commander with Kills credited never reached and matched by any allied tank crew.
Brilliant. Thank you.
May he rest in peace. With just 24 he was KIA during Ardennenoffensive after surviving the fierce battles in the east and in Normandy.
Never outfought only outnumbered.
I hold a middle ground. At one end there are those internet posters who convinced themselves that all aces are fake/nazi propaganda, usually out of jealousy and ignorance. On the other end, there is Agte (author), who believes that being a tank ace is indicative of superhuman mental and physical characteristics.

I think there are several dynamics regarding "aces"

- There are aces in nearly every panzer division or battalion history I've read.

- They are largely a 43-45 defensive phenomenon. (Defensive combat facing high number, massed employment of allied and soviet armor and in conditions of extreme numerical inferiority). If the shoe was reversed, there would be more Allied and Soviet aces too. The average American or Soviet tanker did not do as much tank to tank fighting as the average German tanker. In Igorn's "2nd Tank Army" he has a list of tank "aces"- instead of tanks, the numbers of german troops mowed down in the attack (in the hundreds) was emphasized. This the no. 1 American tank ace:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lafayette_G._Pool

"credited with 12 confirmed tank kills and 258 total armoured vehicle and self-propelled gun kills, over 1,000 German soldiers killed, and 250 more taken as prisoners of war[3] all of which took place in a combat career that covered only 81 days in action from 27 June to 15 September 1944 with three different Shermans."

-In the Western front, there just weren't that many German tanks and AG to knock out in 44/45 outside of normandy, briefy in Lorraine, and the Ardennes.

-Being a tank ace is opportunity/luck plus skill. Either the tank crew was more lucky than consistently skilled or, they were consistently skilled and had opportunities.

-Roy's bio shows that he joined the SS in 1938 and was in SSLAH Panzerjager for a long time, and then went to the 12.SS HJ as a Panzerjager again. During that time he only had 10 tank kills on the Eastern Front. He didn't have anymore after the RK and was killed in the Ardennes.

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by offizier1916 » 27 Aug 2018 22:39

@cult icon. well said. its the same with the Pilot-Aces. Germans had "a million" times more opportunities to hunt them down due to heavily being outnumbered.
The other thing is, that most of the german soldiers fighting in WW2 grew up in a world, which was dedicated to militarism, obedience, drill, self sacrifice and nationalism. Their paramilitary drill began already with 14 and from the craddle on they were taught that "the flagg has more value than the own life". The weakness was to be annihilated. Little Kids were forced to box against older boys until they were K.O. etc pp
So In contrast to most - if not all - other states, the Military was a predominant factor in Germany and Prussia. NCO Schools and Kadettenanstalten were everywhere. German students fencing with sharp sabres to strengthen their mentality and dispel the fear.

A german Historian once said: the young german Leutnant walked like a god through the streets. I
This phrase just emphasize german and prussian mentality


credited with 12 confirmed tank kills and 258 total armoured vehicle and self-propelled gun kills, over 1,000 German soldiers killed, and 250 more taken as prisoners of war[3] all of which took place in a combat career that covered only 81 days in action from 27 June to 15 September 1944 with three different Shermans
."

whats Mr. Kenneys thought about this claims?

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Cult Icon » 28 Aug 2018 13:22

offizier1916 wrote:
27 Aug 2018 22:39
@cult icon. well said. its the same with the Pilot-Aces. Germans had "a million" times more opportunities to hunt them down due to heavily being outnumbered.
The other thing is, that most of the german soldiers fighting in WW2 grew up in a world, which was dedicated to militarism, obedience, drill, self sacrifice and nationalism.
The best book I've found on this subject is the recently published "Rise and Fall of Comradeship". He is a thread exploring it and its points.

https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/foru ... mbat-power

https://books.google.com/books?id=84gHD ... ip&f=false

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by j keenan » 28 Aug 2018 18:37

The Germans needed Aces because they were losing the war and to keep morale up back home they turned to propaganda and the Ace fighting against over whelming odds and destroying the enemy in large numbers.So how can we possibly lose the war!!
A tank is manned by a crew who all need to work together to survive on the battle field so know such thing as a tank ace it's pure fantasy.

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by j keenan » 28 Aug 2018 18:39

offizier1916 wrote:
27 Aug 2018 22:39
@cult icon. well said. its the same with the Pilot-Aces. Germans had "a million" times more opportunities to hunt them down due to heavily being outnumbered.
The other thing is, that most of the german soldiers fighting in WW2 grew up in a world, which was dedicated to militarism, obedience, drill, self sacrifice and nationalism. Their paramilitary drill began already with 14 and from the craddle on they were taught that "the flagg has more value than the own life". The weakness was to be annihilated. Little Kids were forced to box against older boys until they were K.O. etc pp
So In contrast to most - if not all - other states, the Military was a predominant factor in Germany and Prussia. NCO Schools and Kadettenanstalten were everywhere. German students fencing with sharp sabres to strengthen their mentality and dispel the fear.

A german Historian once said: the young german Leutnant walked like a god through the streets. I
This phrase just emphasize german and prussian mentality


credited with 12 confirmed tank kills and 258 total armoured vehicle and self-propelled gun kills, over 1,000 German soldiers killed, and 250 more taken as prisoners of war[3] all of which took place in a combat career that covered only 81 days in action from 27 June to 15 September 1944 with three different Shermans
."

whats Mr. Kenneys thought about this claims?
Its funny they maybe able to win the odd battle but never a war, it seems the Germans have little man syndrome when it comes to the world stage :lol:

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