High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

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Michael Kenny
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Michael Kenny » 28 Aug 2018 20:12

Cult Icon wrote:
27 Aug 2018 22:06
I'd rather come up with my own conclusions.
Any idea when you are going to share your conclusions or when your research will be finished? I am loath to jump in and (appear to) steal your thunder.

offizier1916
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by offizier1916 » 28 Aug 2018 21:03

Kenney youve been exposed over and over again.
You tried it with Bachmann and failed.
Btw Kenney: what about these claims by an allied soldier?
credited with 12 confirmed tank kills and 258 total armoured vehicle and self-propelled gun kills, over 1,000 German soldiers killed, and 250 more taken as prisoners of war[3] all of which took place in a combat career that covered only 81 days in action from 27 June to 15 September 1944 with three different Shermans
.

what are your deep research skills regarding these claims?

Peter89
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Peter89 » 29 Aug 2018 16:54

Regarding the original topic, I seriously doubt that any individual "tank-kill" claim is plausible from any side.

1.) OKW used many correction factors when it came to the estimation of Soviet AFV losses. They simply knew that their crews report misleading numbers. Sorce: https://panzerworld.com/german-tank-kill-claims

2.) To "kill a tank" is a misleading term itself. Sometimes you have a direct hit, and the tank burns out or it blows up. But to kill a tank can also be a cooperation. Double counting was seemingly common.

3.) You cannot take any number regarding AFV losses out of context. It's somewhat the same as in the case of the Battle of Britain. If any of your crews can get back to your base, if you can salvage any of the damaged machines, then the numbers start to deviate from the reality.

I'd say only the reported losses of "own" formations can be trusted enough.

Michael Kenny
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Michael Kenny » 29 Aug 2018 18:36

Peter89 wrote:
29 Aug 2018 16:54
I'd say only the reported losses of "own" formations can be trusted enough.
'Own' documentation can sometimes give the game away. Take Carius and his claim for 10-30 IS-2 on July 22nd 1944
The most widely circulated claim from the net:
Otto Carius recalls that the entire battle did not last more than 20 minutes. in this short time, Carius and Kerscher knocked out 17 of the new JS-1 Stalin and 5 T-34 tanks. Following this he deployed 6 of his tanks in an ambush against the remainder of the Soviet tank battalion advancing toward him, unaware of their lead companies demise. Surprise was complete and a further 28 tanks were destroyed along with their supporting trucks and vehicles, the complete battalion had been wiped out for no loss.

In his book 'Tigers in The Mud' Carius has the AAR (4 July to 17 August 1944) of his commander Major Hans Joachim Schwaner on page 223 and it clearly says the first engagement was against 17 T-34 and 6 IS-2 (not 17 IS-2) and there is no mention at all of a later engagement with 28 Soviet tanks on July 22.

Peter89
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Peter89 » 29 Aug 2018 22:05

I'm not talking about their claims, but their own reported losses. Eg. 503rd Heavy Panzer Batallion reports 2 lost Tigers.

Michael Kenny
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Michael Kenny » 29 Aug 2018 22:29

Peter89 wrote:
29 Aug 2018 22:05
I'm not talking about their claims, but their own reported losses. Eg. 503rd Heavy Panzer Batallion reports 2 lost Tigers.
The Normandy German paperwork is to patchy to get any real numbers for losses. If you check Schneider (TIC 1) you will see that sPzAbt 503 section describes every Tiger loss after 18-7-44 (32 tanks) as crew destroyed/abandoned/homeland repair.

Richard Anderson
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Richard Anderson » 29 Aug 2018 23:24

Michael Kenny wrote:
29 Aug 2018 22:29
The Normandy German paperwork is to patchy to get any real numbers for losses. If you check Schneider (TIC 1) you will see that sPzAbt 503 section describes every Tiger loss after 18-7-44 (32 tanks) as crew destroyed/abandoned/homeland repair.
Beyond that, I well know you are aware of just how fraught with inconsistency and confusion the term "lost" when applied to tanks is. I know of instances where tanks were reported as "write offs" to 12th Army Group, but then when the ground they were bogged in and irrecoverable on one day was recaptured the next, they were recovered and miraculously no longer "lost". Ditto a number of the Shermans of D-Day. They were "lost" when the LCT(A) they were on hit mines and sank...in water shallow enough that a few days later they were recovered, cleaned out and reissued. Even at least a few of the tanks recorded by First Army in its well-known lost study were "lost" due to burning out...but then it is noted they were rebuilt and reissued.

It simply isn't black and white. It is infinite shades of grey.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Michael Kenny
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 Aug 2018 00:17

Richard Anderson wrote:
29 Aug 2018 23:24
Beyond that, I well know you are aware of just how fraught with inconsistency and confusion the term "lost" when applied to tanks is. .....................It simply isn't black and white. It is infinite shades of grey.

To some it is very easy to define a totally destroyed tank. If a German tanker makes a claim it then it instantly becomes a 'confirmed kill' and a total loss to the unit it belonged to. Of the claimed '60' Polish tanks knocked out Aug 8-12th. Brian Reid in No Holding Back has a breakdown (page 290) where he notes just 27 of the total (he makes it 57) are classed as 'Z' Casualties and thus possible total losses. 30 were deemed obviously repairable.
Napier (The Armoured Campaign In Normandy' page 99) notes that overall it was reckoned '50% of tank Casualties could be repaired in the Divison, 25% repaired by 3rd/4th line workshops and 25% were scrapped/total losses.'

histan
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by histan » 30 Aug 2018 01:03

I am staggered that anybody takes any of these "tank kill" claims, on either side, as representing "the truth".

My main experience in air warfare and I can assure you that no one takes any "claim" as being a fact until it has been correlated with a corresponding loss on the other side - it is simply regarded as a claim. Everyone knows that all of the claims made by individual aircrew are likely to be higher than the actual number of aircraft damaged or destroyed. The same is even more true for AAA and SAM. Sometimes this can be put down to multiple claims on the same aircraft, sometimes it seems to be down to blatant dishonesty when claims are made when no aircraft were in the area or even flying at all. In particular, no one quotes as a fact the claims made in a medal citation, since these are invariably too large.

Certainly, in small conflicts, such as the Falklands War, it has proved possible to correlate all claims and losses and to determine the fate of all of the aircraft involved. This revealed significant incorrect claims made by the SAM systems, while validating the claims made by the Sea Harriers.

It is this activity, correlating claims and losses, that I think Michael Kenny is undertaking. The fact that he has a large amount of primary source material with regard to allied tank casualties against which he can check German tank claims seems to upset some people.

As an aside, over claiming is also to be found in infantry actions. In the Far East a well known VC action has been thoroughly scrutinised. The claims of Japanese soldiers killed far exceeded the number of bodies found and buried after the action was complete. At the time, this was explained away by saying that the claimed Japanese soldier whose bodies could not be found had "crawled away deep into the jungle and died there."

Regards

John

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Cult Icon » 30 Aug 2018 01:23

Many authors on the Eastern Front (the war did not start and end June 1944-August 1944) have revealed Soviet stats, and on this forum, Art has been very helpful. These are easily compared to the German ones.

The tank kills are either roughly accurate or inflated up to 100% for the most part. The German kill claims weren't extremely far off. 2:1 overclaim or 1.5 to 1 overclaim really isn't that bad for warfare. Aerial warfare is comically inaccurate- not a good comparison at all.

Igorn's Tank Army books have a lot of statistics and talk about how their losses occurred. Frequently, tanks were knocked out more than once before they were written off.

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 Aug 2018 01:45

Cult Icon wrote:
30 Aug 2018 01:23


The tank kills are either roughly accurate or inflated up to 100% for the most part. The German kill claims weren't extremely far off. 2:1 overclaim or 1.5 to 1 overclaim really isn't that bad for warfare.
The Barkmann's Corner incident (for example) is more than a simple overclaim.

This incident shows how the loss of 2 Churchills and 2 M10s resulted in 3 KC awards for the destruction of 22 tanks:

The story from the history of 6th Guards Tank Brigade from 1948:

the tank crews...soon discovered that the village was already swarming with German SPs and half-tracks manned by Panzer Grenadiers... the Germans had managed to hoodwink the men of the outpost company into thinking that they were British armour and had completely overrun them." It appears that the Coldstream tanks, guns, transport etc were crammed nose to tail in the village. After the fierce battle, 12 out of 13 German SPs were knocked out and 7 half-tracks were deserted. At least 150 German dead and 150 prisoners taken. The Coldstreams lost 2 tanks, one petrol three tonner, 2 M10s; the Glasgow highlanders lost most of their carriers, their command vehicle and practically all their transport with 30 dead and 30 missing. The platoon of sappers suffered heavily and their transport was wiped out.

Now though softskin/transport losses were severe the key fact for our purpose is that only 2 Churchills and 2 M10's were lost.
It appears this attack resulted in the award of 3 KC's for the destruction of 22 tanks.

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=7910&start=0

"2.Leutnant Friederich Anding-18 kills
Friederich received his KC for the destruction of 6 tanks and 5 armored vehicles (so says his Verleihungsvorschlag zum Ritterkreuz), as adjutant of the Pz.Jg.Abt. Großdeutschland (commander of the battalion was Maj. Walle) on 8 May 1945. This action took place in northern Germany (more specifically in Stadensen) on 14-15 April. The battalion was attacked by a large number of enemy tanks and armored vehicles. Major Walle (9 destroyed tanks), Leutnant Anding and Obergefreiter Stützle (7 destroyed tanks) received KCs for their actions"


Now there is a comment added that advises caution on the claimed losses:

Now here's what Andreas Düfel (the webmaster of das-ritterkreuz website, he also lives near the town Stadensen, where this action took place and talked to several witnesses) says about this particular incident:

'The town was almost completly destroyed by the tank battle. A documentiation about this fightings still exist. It's interested that the town residents doubt whether there were really18-22 British tanks destroyed. The wrecks were predominantly armored vehicles (not tanks) and quite a few of them were also German. War confusions of the last days of the war could have quite led to a false evaluation of the actually destroyed tanks..'


It is clear there was no effort made to check the claims at all.

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Cult Icon » 27 Sep 2018 12:50

Werner Klaucke (then a Lt. of 3. Kompanie, PzJ Abteilung 200, 21st Panzer Division) was rewarded the Knight's Cross for knocking out 29 British tanks on July 4th, 1944.

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Michael Kenny » 27 Sep 2018 18:36

Cult Icon wrote:
27 Sep 2018 12:50
Werner Klaucke (then a Lt. of 3. Kompanie, PzJ Abteilung 200, 21st Panzer Division) was rewarded the Knight's Cross for knocking out 29 British tanks on July 4th, 1944.
I think that should read 'awarded an KC on July 4th for knocking out (i.e claiming) a total of 29 tanks up to that date rather than knocking out 29 tanks on July 4th

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Stiltzkin » 28 Sep 2018 00:23

Its actually simple: Individual claims = very careful treatment necessary, touch with pliers only. Overall figures which were adjusted by the High Command, probably much closer. The best way to control these claims is to trace the units whereabouts and then check munitions expenditure by weapon type, this is data which is hard to obtain. Note that damage and destroyed have to be taken into account (as well as the attackers and defenders numerical strength ratio S), since tank crews cannot ultimately know what happens with a wreck - they still fired on something on the horizon.
Units facing an opponent with higher combat power tend to exaggerate its strength, while numerically superior attackers tend to inflate their claims even greater.

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Cult Icon » 28 Sep 2018 00:49

or it's not that important? nobody cares

Tank kills reported on June 6- July 3:

Panzer Lehr: 154 kills
12.SS :141
21.Pz: 101

Total write offs June 6- July 8

Panzer Lehr: 80 write offs
12.SS: 84
21.Pz: 54

From "Panzertruppen II"

Werner Klaucke was credited with 29 out of 101 reported tank kills.

June 6- July 23rd: 21.Pz reported its 300th tank kills with attached unit, Tiger 503. Stug Brigade 200 was also part of the division.

"History of the 21st Panzer Division".

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