High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
fockewulf17
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Post by fockewulf17 » 13 Aug 2007 18:11

I see. Thanks for the info Micheal. Sorry for the confusion.

Jan-Hendrik
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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 13 Aug 2007 18:19

Use the search facility of the forum, this topic was already disscussed nearly to death :D

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 15 Aug 2007 13:31

Another intersting one is Gefreiter Herbert Fries of 2./FschPzJgAbt.1 who was awarded with the RK on 5.9.44 for the destruction of 20 tanks between 21.5.44 and 24.5.44 being Richtschütze in a fortified Pantherturm!!

Bio by Balsi

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 26 Oct 2007 07:20

Another obe for the records:

Uffz. Rudolf Larsen of 2./PzRgt. GD was awarded with the KC for 66 Abschüsse.

See SpaeterDie Geschichte des Panzerkorps Großdeutschland, Vol. 2, p.669

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Mikhasto
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Post by Mikhasto » 18 Nov 2007 16:12

Anti-tank team member Corporal Ville Väisänen destroyd 8 tanks in one day but fell on
that same evening. He was awarded post-humously with Mannerheims-cross.

With captured T-34, gunner/commander sergeant Reino Lehväslaiho knocked out 5 T-34`s and 2 SU-152 assault guns in one day. During 25.6-26.6 1944 finnish assault gun battalion
conducted raid and destroyed 87 enemy tanks with losses of 8. Assault gun commander
Börje Brotell destroyed 11 tanks and 8 of those during that raid. One has to bear in mind
that finnish armoured forces had some 50 tanks at its disposal during the whole war. They were T-28``s, captured T-34s and some stugIIIG`s.

JodelFlieger
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Post by JodelFlieger » 19 Dec 2007 22:34

Hello all
How were the "kills" of tank crews confirmed? Did they rely on a specified number of witnesses or by a physical sight of the wrecked enemy? Was it along the lines of the Luftwaffe "kill" system?
regards
JF

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Post by Username » 22 Jan 2008 16:21

JodelFlieger wrote:Hello all
How were the "kills" of tank crews confirmed? Did they rely on a specified number of witnesses or by a physical sight of the wrecked enemy? Was it along the lines of the Luftwaffe "kill" system?
regards
JF
In battles where the Germans held the field, the tank recovery and repair sections would tally and document kills.

In other cases, witnesses could be used. As guns became deadlier at longer ranges, it might be more difficult to gage what happened especially when pulling back.

A real kill is a AFV that has been either fully engulfed by flames or one that has been purposely destroyed after a battle. The recovery and repair sections would destroy any abandoned enemy armor if they could not use it or tow it away. T34's were repaired extensively by the enemy.

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The_Enigma
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Post by The_Enigma » 26 Jan 2008 20:42

I think the list which opened up this topic is amazing, the numbers those men achieved!

However does anyone know if any of that is in any published work or anything so that some of the tools over on the wiki will accept the fact at last that there was people out there with more kills then Wittmann?

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 03 Feb 2008 14:28

Another one for the List:

According to the unit history of 2.Panzerdivision Leutnant Raum of PR 3 fell on 28th September 1943 with a total of 45 achieved kills (Strauss, page 360).

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Addenum:

According to Scherzer Lt. Otto Raum of 8./PR 3 was posthumly awarded with the Ehrenblattspange des Heeres on 17.10.43.

mwille
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Post by mwille » 09 Feb 2008 06:10

I spoke to a wireless operator (pz IV and Panther) who related a story as follows...a single concealed Panther covering an elevated approach road killed a column of JS III by first taking out the lead tank, then the last, then the others - 11 in all. The russian tanks could not leave the road due to heavy mud on both sides once they were boxed in. Later this tank commander went into battle in a King Tiger.

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Re: Kill scores

Post by 4/Badger » 09 Mar 2008 23:53

Slovak84 wrote:These Men were very skilled Tank Commanders! Most of them started their careers in the early stages of the war.. and were given a numerous amount of different tanks as the war went on such as Stugs, panzer 4's, Panthers and Tigers etc. this means that these Commanders and crews had to adapt to new techniques and fighting strategies becuase every tank has its strength and weakness in different areas!. Plus most German tanks on the western and Eastern Fronts were almost always out numbered in battles and for those of you who say that the German tanks were "SO SUPERIOR TO ANY ALLIED TANKS" thats not the case!! its all about the crews operating these beasts! LETS SAY I WOULD PUT YOU IN IRAQ IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DESERT WITH 1 U.S M1A2 ABRAM TANK vs 10 IRAQI T-72's i would like to see how long you would last!!! and dont think this scenario is unfair, Because this is how it was for most German crews fighting during the war
Whilst not having had any operational(i.e in combat) experience my time in Centurions made me realise it is training and hard experience-and MORE training- which makes a good tank crew. Do remenber that the technical superiority of the Panthers, Tigers and later Mark 4's did not come until mid-1942. But the German crews had the inestimable training techniques of Heinz Guderian and his fellow TruppenAmt officers such as Wenck and Nehring to guide them right from the beginning. In fact both the British Matilda and Russian T34 were superior in one respect or more to all of the early Panzers. but the German formations' Command and Control FAR outstripped their opponents. This was coupled with a process which encouraged both personal initiative and most especially, flexibility of response. The old lags in my regiment could never get over the fact that, having conducted a successful 'op against a German unit, one had to be immediately ready for the inevitable counter attack, instead of brewing up a fresh cuppa and breaking out the compo! Trading time for space and vice versa. That was the real key to German combat success: in the Heer & Waffen SS. However it only works if one can create utter rout conditions or the big battalions'll get you in the end.
If you'll pardon the interjection of a personal note, it may interest people on this site to hear, that as one the early post-conscription officers in the British Army, my training curriculum was (almost verbatim apparently!)that of a Waffen SS infantry officer! To say I was taken aback, puts it mildly! Especially upon walking into the officer's mess in Benghazi to be greeted with: "Ah! One of the new Nazi Boys"! :? Thanks chaps! :(

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Benoit Douville
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Benoit Douville » 03 Apr 2008 01:33

This is really an awesome list, a great way to remember the late Ron Klages.

Regards

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Sarge » 06 Apr 2008 08:53

There is a Fallschirmjäger, PzJagabt (Pak 40) of FJR3, who got the Knights Cross for action in the 3rd battle of Casino.
I'll have to look thru my correspondence file for his name. I met and talked with him several times durring the 50th aniv of Casino celebrations. I have a photo of him I took after the German cerimonies(?). Unfortunately he had taken his medals off. He had worn his KC backwards so the swastika wouldn't offend anyone.
Sarge

Nicole S.
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Nicole S. » 14 Jul 2008 10:25

SS-Obersturmführer Max Schachner

Geboren am 1. Mai 1914 in Haag/Niederdonau und gefallen am 19. Oktober 1944 im Südabschnitt der Ostfront.
RK am 14. Mai 1944 als SS-Obersturmführer und Führer der 2. Batterie SS-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 8.

Im Herbst 1943 stand die Kavallerie-Division "Florian Geyer" abgekämpft im Raume Kriwoi Rog. Am 16. Oktober trat der Gegner mit 150 Panzern an, um die deutschen Linien zu überrollen. Max Schachner fuhr mit den beiden noch vorhandenen Geschützen der angreifenden Panzermasse entgegen, nahm den ungleichen Kampf auf und schoss in einem erbitterten Feuerkampf 24 T34 ab. Er fiel bei einem Erkundungsvorstoß.
Max Schachner, von Beruf Kunstmaler, war bereits in der Friedenszeit in die SS-Verfügungstruppe eingetreten.

Source: Krätschmer / Ritterkreuzträger der Waffen-SS

Horrido!

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 30 Aug 2008 08:09


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