High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

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Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 09 Nov 2022 21:28

alcius wrote:
09 Nov 2022 16:56
... and its commander, Ofhr. Dittmar ...
Hello Antonio,

I know this photograph from the nice book from Axel Urbanke "Endkampf", but here it's clearly stated, that the pic indeed shows Ofhr. Dittmar, but that this Panther was NOT his own mount! There are two more pics with the same tank and some other faces ...

Sorry, no clue for Mr. Dittmar here.

Oliver

Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 09 Nov 2022 21:39

alcius wrote:
09 Nov 2022 17:02
Operation "Zitadelle" July 1943: ... Krause ...
Hi Antonio,

hm ..., with a grain of salt, again. Kurowski. I have nearly 400 names of men from s.Pz.Abt. 505, but no Fw. Krause. Herr Kurowski ..., sometimes I think he uses names not historically accurate.

I will put him in the list but with a question mark as of the correct name in doubt, in my opinion.

Oliver

Michael Kenny
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Michael Kenny » 09 Nov 2022 22:19

Gastolli wrote:
09 Nov 2022 21:39
Herr Kurowski ..., sometimes I think he uses names not historically accurate.
Kurowski made up nearly everything he wrote.

https://youtu.be/pfmilK8D0_Y?t=463

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dgfred
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by dgfred » 09 Nov 2022 22:20

lol

alcius
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 10 Nov 2022 11:50

Thanks Oliver
if Kurowski really made it all up, a lot of things will have to be reviewed, mmhh ...
I wanted to relaunch a Topic of this site.
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=255250
46 abschuss.jpeg
For someone who has 46 panzerkills, it must have a tall decoration.
For that date and with the name Hellmuth I have not found anyone.
For Hellmich the only one is Oberleutnant Günther Hellmich, KC 20.12.1943 Führer 2./Stug.Abt 270

Antonio
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Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 10 Nov 2022 19:37

Michael Kenny wrote:
09 Nov 2022 22:19
Kurowski made up nearly everything he wrote.
Hello Michael,

yes, unfortunately. As he for sure had direct contact with many, many veterans it's always impossible to say what's true and what's kind of fiction. And as for the names he used: Apart from well known persons (high award winners etc.) he also mentions gunners, drivers ...

Most times I can't confirm their identity via the files from Bundesarchiv.

One example of a "tank ace" which comes in my mind is Uffz. Wägele from Stug.Brig. 912, of thom Kurowski in one of his many books claimed he was one of the most successful gun commanders of the Brigade. Well ..., I don't think so, can't find that name anywhere ...

But o.k., we should try to concentrate on primary sources from the Archives, including the newspaper clippings which Antonio is looking for. These clippings in cases of higher awards always are based on the official recommendations from the units, that's for sure, and so we can use them as a source too. Unfortunately just a very low percentage of the original files survived the war.

And of course: CLAIMS and FACTS are not the same. You just have to read the accounts from the Tiger units ("Tiger" or "TIger im Kampf") and you can see, that these units also suffered casualties, Tigers being hit by A/T guns, T34/85 etc., causing some dead or wounded crew members, but being recoverd and used again one week later. NO kill ...?

It's just a game with numbers, but it's the only way to compare soldiers or units, as far as this is possible ever :-)

Oliver

Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 11 Nov 2022 00:30

alcius wrote:
10 Nov 2022 11:50
For someone who has 46 panzerkills, it must have a tall decoration.
Ah, damn ...

first thought: Günther Hellmich would be a good candidate for this (both Hellmuth and Hellmich are possible, in my opinion). He got EK2 and EK1 in 1941 with Stug.Abt. 184 already, was recommended for the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold early 1943 and finally got the Ritterkreuz in December 1943. Stug.Abt. 270 indeed was highly successful against soviet tanks, also, but ...

According to the Book "Sturmartillerie" by ... Kurowski 8O and Tornau Stug.Abt. 270 in September/October 1943 just managed to operate ONE battery of Sturmgeschütze, led by Oblt. Wolz, Günther Hellmich at that time was a Hauptmann already, so obviously Hellmich was NOT in action during that time.

Also, it's true that it's very unlickely that Günther Hellmich signed this photograph with his family name while writing greetings to his beloved ones.

So ..., no, I have no real clue for this Hellmuth X.

It's possible that the 46 tank kills where the score of the unit, and it's also possible, that the man in question didn't get a higher award above EK 1 (see Lt. Alfred Rubbel and Lt. Frhr. von Rosen from Tiger 503 or Uffz. Ohler from Stug.Brig. 270, Oblt. Gösel from Stug.Brig. 244) ...

You know, the forename Hellmuth (with 2 L and with TH at the end) isn't that common in Germany, but I haven't found a suitable candidate.

Nothing to work with, unfortunately ...

Oliver

alcius
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 11 Nov 2022 11:18

Thanks Oliver, I tried, amen.
I have two aces from Germandocsinrussia.
Uffz. Wossner - Stu.Gesch.Abt.1546 - 5 kills
Uffz. Glogowsky - Stug-Batterie 665 - 6 kills
wossner.jpg
glogowsky.jpg
Antonio
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Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 11 Nov 2022 14:14

alcius wrote:
11 Nov 2022 11:18
Uffz. Wossner - Stu.Gesch.Abt.1546 - 5 kills
This one is Uffz. Richard Woessner,
he was from Pz.Jg.Stug.Abt. 1045 (created out of company 1546) from 45. Gren.Div. and got the EK 1st class on 22.8.1944.

Oliver

Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 11 Nov 2022 14:16

alcius wrote:
11 Nov 2022 11:18
Uffz. Glogowsky - Stug-Batterie 665 - 6 kills
Hello Antonio,

that's interesting! Do you have a link to the file as the report itself also is interesting for me of course :-)

Thank you for sharing this!

Oliver

alcius
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 11 Nov 2022 15:41

I found it in
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... estand-500
below 3. Infanterie Division.
The Findbuch is: CAMO_500_12477_34_0248

Antonio

alcius
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 11 Nov 2022 15:58

alcius wrote:
11 Nov 2022 15:41
I found it in
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... estand-500
below 3. Infanterie Division.
The Findbuch is: CAMO_500_12477_34_0248

Antonio

Hello Oliver, if you browse the Findbuch 34, you will find a lot of information about the Pz.Jg.Abt.3, his men and his victories

Antonio

Edward L. Hsiao
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 17 Nov 2022 09:15

I couldn't find any important source of Oberst Dr. Franz Bake having 79 panzer kills. I know that lots of time he was in his command panzer with a wooden dummy cannon. Bake has two dots over the a of his last name.

Edward L. Hsiao

alcius
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 17 Nov 2022 11:05

Hello Edward
I found this Russian site, just translate it
https://reibert.info/threads/tankovye-a ... 626/page-9

Antonio

Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 17 Nov 2022 14:35

Hello Edward, Antonio ...

these entries as of the tank kills of Franz Bäke are based on the book from Mister Franz Kurowski (!). So I have to say that it could be true, but it also could be total bogus, I'm not sure on that. At least it's possible for the french campaign while Bäke was a Kompaniechef within an standard Panzerkampfwagen, not armed with a "dummy".

Oliver

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