High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

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alcius
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 28 Nov 2022 17:11

Thanks Oliver
But Noerren destroyed 9 tanks on 7/2/44 as in the first Newspapers clipping, I have 7 as you wrote.
noerren3.png
Meanwhile, I enclose a newspaper clipping with two aces.

Obergefreiter Heinz Münch -14. Grenadier-Regiment 234 – EBS for 10 kills
Gefreiter Heinrich Rickert - 2. Panzerjäger-Abteilung 260 – Anerkennungsurkunde for 11 kills.

Rheinisch-Bergische Zeitung 53 (14/09/1943)
https://zeitpunkt.nrw/ulbbn/periodical/ ... rikkert%22
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alcius
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 28 Nov 2022 17:29

I have another question.
This is reported in many newspapers:
Ein Oberleutnant schoß bei diesen Kämpfen mit seinem Sturmgeschütz allein 27, sein Richtschütze 22 und ein schneidiger Wachtmeister 17 seindliche Panzerkampfwagen ab."

One among many.
Tremonia / Ausgabe E, Central-Volksblatt für den Kreis Arnsberg 87 (17/02/1943) 40
https://zeitpunkt.nrw/ulbms/periodical/ ... utze%20%22

Taking into account that the Newspapers is dated 17/02/1943, that the three must be from the same Abteilung and that they should be decorated in the same period, the only ones I have found are these.
On 4/2/1943 they were decorated with the German Cross in gold in the Stug-Abt.667 :
Unteroffizier Josef-Ludwig Braun
Obergefreiter Heinrich Götte
Wachtmeister Ernst Schimonek

The only doubt is Braun, Unteroffizier and not Oberleutnant, but there are many errors in the Newspapers.

Antonio

Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 28 Nov 2022 17:37

alcius wrote:
28 Nov 2022 17:11
But Noerren destroyed 9 tanks on 7/2/44 as in the first Newspapers clipping, I have 7 as you wrote.
Hello Antonio,

well, be careful, Noerren may have hit 9 tanks, but he destroyed 7, that's a fault some newspapers did when summarising the text for the high awards. The second clip is much more detailed and should be trusted.

More so, I can read that Noerren's Pakzug was responsible for these kills, so more than one Pak obviously, that could even reduce the number of personal kills for Noerren!

Oliver

Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 28 Nov 2022 17:40

alcius wrote:
28 Nov 2022 17:11
Obergefreiter Heinz Münch -14. Grenadier-Regiment 234 – EBS for 10 kills
Gefreiter Heinrich Rickert - 2. Panzerjäger-Abteilung 260 – Anerkennungsurkunde for 11 kills.
To be correct: for Münch it's 8 tanks for the Ehrenblatt action, plus 3 more tanks previously, so 11 tank kills at least.

Oliver

Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 28 Nov 2022 17:51

alcius wrote:
28 Nov 2022 17:29
On 4/2/1943 they were decorated with the German Cross in gold in the Stug-Abt.667 :
Hello Antonio,

well, no, that's to easy, unfortunately :?

Please keep in mind that the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold was awarded for several actions qualifying for and EK1, but the soldier in question already has that award.

So, they "collected" those "Punkte für das Deutsche Kreuz i.G." (points for the GCiG) and usually after 5 such actions they wrote the recommendation.

That said the actions leading to the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold could have happened over the course of one year, or two years!

And, most important, the way up the ladder, recommendation by the Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung, confirmation by the Division, the Korps, the Armee, the Heeresgruppe ..., final decision in Berlin, Heerespersonalamt ...

Usually you can calculate with two or three months in between.

So, mentioning some successful Sturmgeschütz soldiers on 17.2.1943 does mean they did achieve something just prior to that.

The newspaper refers to heavy fights over the course of some days at the Donezbogen with about 100 soviet tanks shot up, so we have to search a unit fighting right there, early February 1943.

Oliver

Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 28 Nov 2022 17:58

alcius wrote:
28 Nov 2022 17:29
On 4/2/1943 they were decorated with the German Cross in gold in the Stug-Abt.667 :
Unteroffizier Josef-Ludwig Braun
Obergefreiter Heinrich Götte
Wachtmeister Ernst Schimonek
Hi Antonio,

well, this is "easy" I would say, they are not related to this much spread article, but:

This is the crew of Wachtmeister Primozic!

Uffz. Braun = driver
Ogfr. Götte = loader
Wm. Schimonek = gunner

Source: I can't remember, must be one of the many books on the Sturmartillerie :-)

You can see, that these GCiG awards where roughly two months after the events, leading to the Eichenlaub for Hugo Primozic (December 1942).

Oliver

alcius
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 28 Nov 2022 18:30

Thanks Oliver
as usual I was wrong, I thought I had found three aces.
I didn't know about Primozic's crew

Antonio

alcius
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 28 Nov 2022 18:33

To forgive me
Obergefreiter Erwin Eifler. Pz.Rgt.23
On 4 April 1944 on Feldwebel Schneider's Panther destroyed 5 Assault guns
https://www.historical-media.com/_featured_eifler.htm

Antonio

alcius
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 29 Nov 2022 16:34

Another aces

Leutnant Gorbing – 4./Pz.Abt.2107 after 1./Pz.Abt.5 with Jagdpanzer IV. - +10 kills
At wwii.germandocsinrussia.org, there is the diary of Pz.Abt.2107 , later 1./Pz.Abt-5. In the diary Leutnant Gorbing is mentioned who destroyed minimun 10 tanks in a Jagdpanzer IV.
I don't know anything else about him.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... rid/zoom/1

Antonio

Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 01 Dec 2022 19:08

alcius wrote:
28 Nov 2022 18:33
Obergefreiter Erwin Eifler. Pz.Rgt.23
On 4 April 1944 on Feldwebel Schneider's Panther destroyed 5 Assault guns
Hello Antonio,

this is something ... :-)

Nice find, but a slight correction (the seller has it wrong): 1./Pz.Rgt. 23 (and Pz.Einsatzkompanie Rothe) was equipped with Panzer IV, not with Panther tanks. Pz.Rgt. 23 was one of just a few units with II. Abteilung using Panthers, not the I. Abteilung.

Also, the date of the document clearly is 28.4.1944, not 4.4.1944.

But this is nice ...

Oliver

Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 01 Dec 2022 19:15

alcius wrote:
29 Nov 2022 16:34
Leutnant Gorbing – 4./Pz.Abt.2107 after 1./Pz.Abt.5 with Jagdpanzer IV. - +10 kills
Hi Antonio,

ah, nice find, too. Well, I would say at least 8 tank kills, probably more:

Heinz Görbing, Leutnant d. Res.

He got the EK2 as a Leutnant in Stab I./Pz.Rgt. 26 (Panther) early 1944. Than according to the KTB of Pz.Abt. 2107 he joined that unit on 4.10.1944.

13.10.1944 = 4 tanks with 2 Jagdpanzer (so at least 1 kill, or maximum 3 kills) = 4./Pz.Abt. 2107)
05.12.1944 = 2 tanks, 3 tanks damaged with a group of 1 Panther, 1 Jagdpanzer (so, 1 tank kill, probably) = 4./Pz.Abt. 5
20.12.1944 = 2 M4 Sherman
21.12.1944 = 2 M4 Sherman = he got the EK1 on 24.12.1944
13.01.1945 = 2 M4 Sherman

He was heavily wounded on 12.3.1945 northwest of Küstrin and died 18.3.1945 in an hospital Königswusterhausen. In early March the 25. Pz.Gren.Div. destroyed a lot of soviet tanks in the Küstrin area, so Lt. Görbing could have had a higher total of tank kills.

Oliver

alcius
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 02 Dec 2022 12:06

Thanks Oliver

I have a question regarding
Leutnant Horst Sieber – Knight's Cross - Führer, Jagdpanzer-Kompanie 1257

I have this newspaper clipping
sieber.png

but i also have this
06.04.1945 wurde durch die Kompanie Olt. Sieber (8 Hetzer) bei Königsbach bei 4 Ausfällen insgesamt 26 Panzer abgeschossen, von Fischer alleine 6 Panzer (inklusive Fischers 13. Abschuß).
Sieber (verwundet) die Kompanie übernommen, wurde dann auch selbst abgeschossen.

Has which of the two to believe?

Antonio
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Gastolli
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 02 Dec 2022 14:57

alcius wrote:
02 Dec 2022 12:06
Has which of the two to believe?
Hello Antonio, everything's in order here.

According to the recommendations for both of them (available at BA/MA Freiburg):

Sieber = 26 tanks total
Fischer = 13 tanks total

That Jg.Pz.Kp. 1257 claimed 26 tanks killed that day is just a coincidence!

:-)

Oliver

alcius
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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by alcius » 02 Dec 2022 16:29

Thanks Oliver,
just a nice coincidence.

Another ace, perhaps.
Oberfeldwebel August Holzer- GCG - 6./Pz.Rgt.33
I have a newspaper clipping where he tells me that he fought against 18 enemy tanks.
I don't know if he destroyed them all.
https://www.difmoe.eu/view/uuid:2bf279d ... 0holzer%22

Antonio

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Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Post by Gastolli » 04 Dec 2022 14:43

Hello Antonio,

hm, that's a good question. For sure he must have had a share in the destruction of many of those 18 tanks, but it's not defenite how many he actually destroyed by his own Panther.

He was from Pz.Rgt. 33, that from "Zitadelle" up to Normandy he uses Panther tanks (first with 2./Pz.Abt. 51, than was renumbered to 6./Pz.Rgt. 33 as Pz.Abt. 51 went back to Pz.Rgt. 33).

He was captured 20.8.1944, so it's nice to see an article on an recipient of the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold several months after he was taken prisoner! Obviously he was able to write back home.

As August Holzer got the EK1 in early December 1941 his actions leading to the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold must be dated between December 1941 (still operating with Pz III or Pz IV) and March 1944, the time the 9. Pz.Div. was ordered to refresh in the West!

So to say, this action against 18 soviet tanks in a village could also be dated back in 1942.

Oliver

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