Infantry Tank Support
Infantry Tank Support
Ok. How did infantry divisions get tank support? Did they just intermingle with an armored division? Like overlapping? I am wondering about all military forces on this question, not just the Germans.
The french army had the tanks spread within the infantry .... That's why they lost the war in may '40 . The germans made huge tank concentrations , so even if the french tanks were often better than germans' , especially Char 1 bis, the germans succeded in defeat french army . in Russia I think there were armoured troups supported by infantry 
.
The difference between armies were made by the difference between tactics in this matter . Germans had Stugs as armoured support , some of them were specialized in killing tanks and others in killing infantry .
The americans and british ... I do not know ...
It would be better that someone with good knowlegement would talk about
Bogdan(BI)
.The difference between armies were made by the difference between tactics in this matter . Germans had Stugs as armoured support , some of them were specialized in killing tanks and others in killing infantry .
The americans and british ... I do not know ...
It would be better that someone with good knowlegement would talk about
Bogdan(BI)
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Nicklas Fredriksson
- Member
- Posts: 31
- Joined: 09 Aug 2002, 15:48
- Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
I'll try and shed some light on this subject... 8)
The timeframe here is from 1943 onwards and we're talking ETO here!
If anything is wrong please correct it!
Note also the old adage "No rules without exceptions!".
Germans: normally the infantry divisions wouldn't get tank support. They could have integral PzJs/Jpzs or StuGs (usually only a kp). They could get PzJs/Jpzs or StuGs attached or, rarely, Pz from Korps (usually Abt).
Russians: normally the rifle divisions wouldn't get tank support. They could have integral SUs (a single company?). They could get SUs or tanks attached from corps (bat or brigade).
British incl Canadians (and ANZAC?): the infantry divisions had no integral tanks. It was common to have either an Armour (Shermans) or a Tank (Churchills) brigade attached (e a 3 bats) and possibly SPAT (bat) could be attached. All from corps.
Americans: the infantry officially had no integral tanks. IT was common to have one or more Armour bat and one or more TD (towed or SP) bat attached on a semi-permanent basis. All from corps.
Kind rgds
Nick
The timeframe here is from 1943 onwards and we're talking ETO here!
If anything is wrong please correct it!
Note also the old adage "No rules without exceptions!".
Germans: normally the infantry divisions wouldn't get tank support. They could have integral PzJs/Jpzs or StuGs (usually only a kp). They could get PzJs/Jpzs or StuGs attached or, rarely, Pz from Korps (usually Abt).
Russians: normally the rifle divisions wouldn't get tank support. They could have integral SUs (a single company?). They could get SUs or tanks attached from corps (bat or brigade).
British incl Canadians (and ANZAC?): the infantry divisions had no integral tanks. It was common to have either an Armour (Shermans) or a Tank (Churchills) brigade attached (e a 3 bats) and possibly SPAT (bat) could be attached. All from corps.
Americans: the infantry officially had no integral tanks. IT was common to have one or more Armour bat and one or more TD (towed or SP) bat attached on a semi-permanent basis. All from corps.
Kind rgds
Nick
German Infanterie-Division did not have integral tank battalion. The only full-motorized battalion was Panzerjaeger-Abteilung, the anti-tank battalion. The battalion had three motorized anti-tank companies and one motorized anti-aircraft company in the early war year. As the time went by they received more effective weapons such as StuG or Hetzer. The division did get some armor support from higher command level, the Korps or Armee, most of them were independent StuG-Bataillon.
US infantry division also did not have integral tank battalion. But all of them received one independent tank battalion attached to them. Besides they also had a tank destroyer battalion.
German Panzergrenadier-Division was upgraded from previous Infanterie-Division (motorisiert). The division did receive one Panzer-Abteilung, most of them equipped with Panzer III or Panzer IV initially. Most of them were re-equipped with StuG as replacements in late war year. Few of them remained real Panzer-Abteilung (Panzer IV or even Panzer V). The exceptions were GD Panzergrenadier-Division and her sister divisions. Although in the name of Panzergrenadier-Division they had nearly the same combat strength as Heer Panzer-Division especially in late war year.
US infantry division also did not have integral tank battalion. But all of them received one independent tank battalion attached to them. Besides they also had a tank destroyer battalion.
German Panzergrenadier-Division was upgraded from previous Infanterie-Division (motorisiert). The division did receive one Panzer-Abteilung, most of them equipped with Panzer III or Panzer IV initially. Most of them were re-equipped with StuG as replacements in late war year. Few of them remained real Panzer-Abteilung (Panzer IV or even Panzer V). The exceptions were GD Panzergrenadier-Division and her sister divisions. Although in the name of Panzergrenadier-Division they had nearly the same combat strength as Heer Panzer-Division especially in late war year.
) much for psychological and historical reason ...
Nicklas basically has this right, as far as my knowledge stretches. The only thing I'd add is this - didn't the Soviet army have Tank Brigades who were occasionally deployed in support of Rifle divisions?
Now, Panzer Grenadiers: The term originally denoted the motorised infantry of the Panzer divisions. At the same time, the wehrmacht contained a number of motorised infantry divisions. These were not called Panzer Grenadiers, and were - in nomenclature - only distinguished from normal infantry by the appendix "(mot.)" after the divisional number. An Infanterie-division (mot.) was relatively similar to a normal infantry division in structure, except that it had just two infantry regiments and were fully motorised.
However, from one point in the war onwards, I believe in 1943, the motorised divisions were all renamed Panzer Grenadier divisions. These normally eventually included a StuG batallion, and were relatively similar to a Panzer division in structure, except they had the StuG batallion rather than a Panzer rgt, and 3 batallions per PzGren Rgt rather than 2 as in the Pz divisions.
cheers
Now, Panzer Grenadiers: The term originally denoted the motorised infantry of the Panzer divisions. At the same time, the wehrmacht contained a number of motorised infantry divisions. These were not called Panzer Grenadiers, and were - in nomenclature - only distinguished from normal infantry by the appendix "(mot.)" after the divisional number. An Infanterie-division (mot.) was relatively similar to a normal infantry division in structure, except that it had just two infantry regiments and were fully motorised.
However, from one point in the war onwards, I believe in 1943, the motorised divisions were all renamed Panzer Grenadier divisions. These normally eventually included a StuG batallion, and were relatively similar to a Panzer division in structure, except they had the StuG batallion rather than a Panzer rgt, and 3 batallions per PzGren Rgt rather than 2 as in the Pz divisions.
cheers
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Nicklas Fredriksson
- Member
- Posts: 31
- Joined: 09 Aug 2002, 15:48
- Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Just to clarify to Johnny:
Panzer grenadiers were either motorised or mechanised infantry in the PzD and PzGrD.
Panzergrenadier divisions were either 1) upgraded motorised divisions, ie as specified by Charlie in his post above or 2) the "named" divisions 1942-43 (for example GD and some of the Waffen-SS divisions) before they were officially named panzerdivisions, ie to all effects they were panzerdivisions although not labeled as such.
Kind rgds
Nick
Panzer grenadiers were either motorised or mechanised infantry in the PzD and PzGrD.
Panzergrenadier divisions were either 1) upgraded motorised divisions, ie as specified by Charlie in his post above or 2) the "named" divisions 1942-43 (for example GD and some of the Waffen-SS divisions) before they were officially named panzerdivisions, ie to all effects they were panzerdivisions although not labeled as such.
Kind rgds
Nick
As a whole - the Germans no, the US yes.
Recall that there were fundamental differences in the structure of the two armies. The americans built a force of less than 100 divisions and supported all of it with motorised and armoured means. The Germans, with enormous territorial commitments, maintained an army of 2-300 divisions from a much smaller industrial base. It was simply not possible for them to support such a large force in the same way. So basically they built two separate types of forces: Infantry divisions relying on foot and horse, with very limited armoured and motorised assets available for support, and mobile Panzer and Panzer Grenadier divisions with a level of motorised and armoured assets comparable to the US. Unlike American formations, they overwhelmingly had these assets as organic elements of the divisions. And while the percentage of motorised formations in the Wehrmacht was never very high, they did at their peak maintain some 50 such divisions.
cheers
cheers
Recall that there were fundamental differences in the structure of the two armies. The americans built a force of less than 100 divisions and supported all of it with motorised and armoured means. The Germans, with enormous territorial commitments, maintained an army of 2-300 divisions from a much smaller industrial base. It was simply not possible for them to support such a large force in the same way. So basically they built two separate types of forces: Infantry divisions relying on foot and horse, with very limited armoured and motorised assets available for support, and mobile Panzer and Panzer Grenadier divisions with a level of motorised and armoured assets comparable to the US. Unlike American formations, they overwhelmingly had these assets as organic elements of the divisions. And while the percentage of motorised formations in the Wehrmacht was never very high, they did at their peak maintain some 50 such divisions.
cheers
cheers
Motorized infantry in Panzergrenadier-Division and Panzer-Division
The term "Panzergrenadier" was issued on the Heeresmitteilung (army announcement) 1942/581 from OKH 4490/42. Generalstab des Heeres (general staff of army), Org.Abt.(II) (organization department) to replace the term "Schuetzen" in motorized infantry element in Panzer-Division on 5th July 1942. The previous Schuetzen-Regiment was retitled with the name Panzergrenadier-Regiment. However, the Panzergrenadier-Regiment in the Panzer-Division was not all gepanzeriert (armorized, that means riding on SPW251). Only one of the four Panzergrenadier-Bataillon was riding on SPW251 on the average among Panzer-Division. The other three were so-called "Gummi Panzergrenadier" (rubber Panzergrenadier, that means riding on soft skin vehicles). Although these "Gummi Panzergrenadier" received the same training of tank-infantry cooperation tactics, they lacked the cross-country ability, protection and fire power to join the Panzer-Abteilung for major strike.
The Infanterie-Division (mot.) was converted to Panzergrenadier-Division as late as 23rd June 1943 after the reorganization of Panzertruppen by Guderian. That means the new Panzergrenadier-Division was no longer under the control of Infanterietruppen and was reassigned to Panzertruppen. The same rule also applied to the Panzergrenadier-Regiment in Panzer-Division. Only two of them was reverted to ordinary foot Infanterie-Division, the 14. and 36. Although the new Panzergrenadier-Division all received one Panzer-Abteilung (actually StuG in most cases), their Grenadier-Regiment (mot.) were all riding on soft skin vehicles. Thus further hampered their ability as a offensive role.
Some elite motorized divisions were another long story, like GD, senior Waffen-SS divisions, LSSAH, DR, T, W and Luftwaffe HG. They were gradually expansion from Infanterie-Division (mot.) to Panzergrenadier-Division and finally Panzer-Division (except GD and HG, GD remained the name of Panzergrenadier until the end; and HG bypassed the step of Panzergrenadier). These elite divivsions had 2 to 3 Panzer-Abteilung plus 6 Panzergrenadier-Bataillon, some of them had two Panzergrenadier-Bataillon riding on SPW251. Thus made them a formidable fighting unit.
The term "Panzergrenadier" was issued on the Heeresmitteilung (army announcement) 1942/581 from OKH 4490/42. Generalstab des Heeres (general staff of army), Org.Abt.(II) (organization department) to replace the term "Schuetzen" in motorized infantry element in Panzer-Division on 5th July 1942. The previous Schuetzen-Regiment was retitled with the name Panzergrenadier-Regiment. However, the Panzergrenadier-Regiment in the Panzer-Division was not all gepanzeriert (armorized, that means riding on SPW251). Only one of the four Panzergrenadier-Bataillon was riding on SPW251 on the average among Panzer-Division. The other three were so-called "Gummi Panzergrenadier" (rubber Panzergrenadier, that means riding on soft skin vehicles). Although these "Gummi Panzergrenadier" received the same training of tank-infantry cooperation tactics, they lacked the cross-country ability, protection and fire power to join the Panzer-Abteilung for major strike.
The Infanterie-Division (mot.) was converted to Panzergrenadier-Division as late as 23rd June 1943 after the reorganization of Panzertruppen by Guderian. That means the new Panzergrenadier-Division was no longer under the control of Infanterietruppen and was reassigned to Panzertruppen. The same rule also applied to the Panzergrenadier-Regiment in Panzer-Division. Only two of them was reverted to ordinary foot Infanterie-Division, the 14. and 36. Although the new Panzergrenadier-Division all received one Panzer-Abteilung (actually StuG in most cases), their Grenadier-Regiment (mot.) were all riding on soft skin vehicles. Thus further hampered their ability as a offensive role.
Some elite motorized divisions were another long story, like GD, senior Waffen-SS divisions, LSSAH, DR, T, W and Luftwaffe HG. They were gradually expansion from Infanterie-Division (mot.) to Panzergrenadier-Division and finally Panzer-Division (except GD and HG, GD remained the name of Panzergrenadier until the end; and HG bypassed the step of Panzergrenadier). These elite divivsions had 2 to 3 Panzer-Abteilung plus 6 Panzergrenadier-Bataillon, some of them had two Panzergrenadier-Bataillon riding on SPW251. Thus made them a formidable fighting unit.