German detailed losses 1939

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
User avatar
Rian
Member
Posts: 142
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 22:45
Location: Czarnkow, Poland

German detailed losses 1939

Post by Rian » 18 Apr 2005 09:54

Did anybody know German detailed (by Divisions or Corps) losses in September Campaign 1939????
I know only final recapitulation this Campaign: 16,343 KIA, 320 MIA i 27,280 WIA and some from divisions e.g.

4 Pz.Div:
KIA Officers 18, NCO´s, men 298
MIA NCO´s, men 78
WIA Officers 51, NCO´s, men 496
Total casualties 941
and tanks (1-25.09.1939): PzKpfw I - 46, PzKpfw II - 33, PzKpfw IV - 6 and 9 command tanks (some later repaired)

I'm interested this problem to confront Polish and German information (e.g. Polish says that German 30 Inf. Div. less at Battle of Bzura ~2000 men - KIA, WIA and POW. And what says Germans??)

User avatar
Rian
Member
Posts: 142
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 22:45
Location: Czarnkow, Poland

Re: German detailed losses 1939

Post by Rian » 10 Sep 2008 22:54

On polish forum dws.org.pl we made a list of german units losses in september campaign 1939. If You have any more information - please give them.

I. ARMY GROUP NORTH:

- 1 Air Fleet: ***
* 1 Flieger-Division
* Luftwaffenkommando Ostpreussen
* Luftwaffen-Lehrdivision
- SS-Heimwehr Danzig – 39 KIA, ??MIA/WIA
- 10 Armoured Division
- 73 Infantry Division
- 206 Infantry Division
- 208 Infantry Division - 176 KIA, 102 MIA, 359 WIA

1. 3th Army: (All army - 66 tanks included 5 PZ III and 5 PZ IV)
- Brigade “Eberhardt”
- 217 Infantry Division
- Wodrig Corps:
* 1 Infantry Division
* 12 Infantry Division
* 1 Cavalary Brigade
* Brandt Group
~ Loetzen Fortress Brigade
~ Goldap Fortress Brigade
- I Corps:
* Armoured Division Kempf (all division 756 soldiers incl. 189 KIA):
~ 7 tank Regiment
~ SS Motorized Regiment SS “Deutshland” - 98 KIA, ? MIA, ? WIA
~ SS Light Artillery Regiment
~ SS Recon Division
~ Engineer Company
* 11 Infantry Division
* 61 Infantry Division
* Infantry Brigade “Danzig”
- XXI Corps:
* 21 Infantry Division (1-20 IX): KIA: 5 off., 43 unteroff., 183 mann = 231, WIA: 27 off., 86 unteroff., 523 mann = 636, MIA: 1 off, 24 mann = 25
* 228 Infantry Division

2. 4th Army: (All army – 4 tanks)
- 10 Armoured Division
- 218 Infantry Division
- I Border Guard Command 1:
* 207 Infantry Division
* 32 Border Guard Regiment
* 42 Border Guard Regiment
- 23 Infantry Division
- II Corps:
* 3 Infantry Division – (only between 11-18 IX): 104 KIA, 17 MIA, 211 WIA
* 32 Infantry Division
- III Corps:
* Infantry Brigade „Netze” - 197 KIA, 48 MIA, 309 WIA
* 50 Infantry Division - 192 KIA, 69 MIA, 397 WIA
- XIX Motorized Corps: - all Corps: 650 KIA, 1586 MIA and WIA
* 3 Armoured Division
* 2 Motorized Division
* 20 Motorized Division

II. ARMY GROUP SOUTH:
- 4 AIR FLEET: ***
* 2 Flieger-Division
* Fliegerführer z.b.V
* 7 Parachute Division
- VII Corps:
* 27 Infantry Division
* 68 Infantry Division
- 62 Infantry Division
- 213 Infantry Division
- 221 Infantry Division - 129 KIA, 46 MIA, 273 WIA

1. 8th Army: (all army 15 included 7 Pz38 and 1 PzIV)
- 30 Infantry Division - 800 KIA, 117 + 500 = 617 MIA (About 500 MIA was probably after campaign reclassified as KIA), about 1000 WIA (lost 1589 men (50% wounded) during the battle at the Bzura)
- Border Guard Command 13
- Border Guard Command 14
- X Corps:
* 24 Infantry Division - 407 KIA?, 98 MIA?, ? WIA (The division lost 472 dead, 1017 wounded during the battle at the Bzura)
- XIII Corps:
* 10 Infantry Division - 352 KIA, 76 MIA, ??? WIA
* 17 Infantry Division - 291 KIA, 122 MIA, ?? (lost 900 dead and wounded during the battle at the Bzura)
* SS Motorized Infantry Regiment „Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler” - 108 KIA, about 400 WIA

2. 10th Army: (all army 273 tanks)
- 1 Light Division: KIA: 22 off., 37 unteroff., 165 mann = 224, MIA 3 unteroff., 78 mann = 81, WIA 35 off., 109 unteroff., 431 mann. = 575, Tanks: 8 PzII, 77 Pz35, 9 PzIV
- IV Corps:
* 4 Infantry Division
* 46 Infantry Division
- XI Corps:
* 18 Infantry Division - 717 KIA, ? WIA, ? MIA
* 19 Infantry Division - 284 KIA, 116 MIA, ? WIA
- XIV Motorized Corps:
* 13 Motorized Division: 84 KIA, 121 MIA, 226 WIA
* 29 Motorized Division:
- XV Motorized Corps:
* 2 Light Division
* 3 Light Division
- XVI Armoured Corps:
* 1 Armoured Division - 252 KIA, 19 MIA, 398 WIA, tanks: 25 PzI, 29 PzII, 11 PzIII, 16 PzIV i 4 PzBefWg
* 4 Armoured Division - (KIA, MIA, WIA - to 20 IX, tanks - to 25 IX): 316 KIA, 78 MIA, 547 WIA, 94 tanks: 46 Pzkfw I, 33 Pzkfw II, 6 Pzkfw IV, 9 command tanks
* 31 Infantry Division
* 14 Infantry Division

3. 14th Army: (all army 61 tanks incl. 3 PzIII and 7 PzIV)
- VIII Corps:
* 5 Armoured Division
* 8 Infantry Division
* 28 Infantry Division: KIA 15 off., 60 unteroff., 335 mann = 410, WIA 30 off., 137 unteroff, 696 mann = 863, MIA 1 off., 11 unteroff., 157 mann = 169
* 239 Infantry Division
* SS Motorized Regiment “Germania”
- XVII Corps:
* 7 Infantry Division
* 44 Infantry Division
* 45 Infantry Division – only 16th September 124 KIA incl. 7 officers
- XVIII Corps:
* 2 Armoured Division
* 4 Light Division
* 3 Mountain Division

III. Slovak Army „Bernolak” (all: 18 KIA, 46 WIA i 11 MIA):
- 1 Infantry Division „Janosik”
- 2 Infantry Division „Skultety“
- 3 Infantry Division “Razus“
- Fast Group “Kalincak”

IV. OKH Reserve:
- XXII Corps:
* 1 Mountain Division – 405 KIA, 918 WIA, 79 MIA (probably KIA), 608 sick (most of casualties during Battle of Lvov)
* 2 Mountain Division
- 56 Infantry Division
- 57 Infantry Division
- 252 Infantry Division
- 257 Infantry Division
- 258 Infantry Division

V. Kriegsmarine – Naval Comand East:
- Battleship “Schleswig-Holstein” - 6 KIA, 27 IX, coastal battery + 3 KIA accident (explosion during battle of Westerplatte) = 9 KIA
– Battleship “Schlesien”
- 3 U-boat Flotilla
- 1 Destroyer Flotylla – 4 KIA, 4 WIA (3 IX – “Leberecht Maas” - battle near Hel)
- 1 Submarine Chasers Flotilla
- 1 Minesweeper Flotilla - 24 KIA, i 10 WIA - "M-85" 1 X, sunk on polish mine
- 3 Minesweeper Flotilla - 4 WIA - "Otto Braun" 12 IX, coastal battery
- 1 R-boot Flotilla
- Escort Flotilla
- 5 Protect Flotilla
- Minelayer Flotilla
- Schol Torpedo Flotilla
- Schol Minesweeper Flotilla
- Schol Minelayer Flotilla
- Luftwaffe Naval Force East
- Kriegsmarine Assault Company: 16 KIA, 65 WIA, 29 contusion (on Westerplatte)

VI. German Paramilitary forces
* Freikorps
* Selbschutz

*** Units of 1 and 4 Air Fleet – together: 176 KIA, 110 WIA, 221 MIA (only flight personel). Other sources – 956 KIA, WIA, MIA (flight ang ground personel)


After campaign most of MIA was reclassified as KIA.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3657
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: German detailed losses 1939

Post by Peter K » 11 Sep 2008 13:41

Rian - similar topic already exists on this forum (in the thread about the Polish campaign), and some of the figures you listed here are incorrect - and by the way - the vast majority of those figures have been given by me before on several forums:

- the Polish historycy.org forums
- Polish Strategy and Tactics forums
- also here - on Axis History Forum

a long time ago...


I think its NOT FAIR that you have copied my list - old one - here - and you have not given your source...

Since then i made a new list, which is more complete and more correct.

If it comes to figures given by you - big part of them is incorrect - for example:

On 18th of September 35. Panzer-Regiment from 4. Panzer-Division had got 60 tanks (according to regimental commander - Oberstleutnant Eberbach, and according to ww2 day by day) which disqualify figures given by Jentz (which you have just cited – but incorrectly, because he gave number of tanks which were damaged beyond repair).

Another example:

1 Mountain Division – 405 KIA, 918 WIA, 79 MIA (probably KIA), 608 sick (most of casualties during Battle of Lvov)


Casualties only for the battle of Lvov of this division were – according to ww2 day by day:

484 dead and 918 wounded

Losses for the whole campaign are probably unknown.

3. 14th Army: (all army 61 tanks incl. 3 PzIII and 7 PzIV)
- VIII Corps:
* 5 Armoured Division


Actually – casualties of 5. Panzer-Division for the whole campaign are unknown, as no any official account exists.

They are not included in any official accounts of tank casualties of this army or of the Wehrmacht in general.

And if it comes to 2. Panzer-Division – on 18th of September, while attacking Tomaszow Lubelski, its whole 3. Panzer-Regiment and half of 4. Panzer-Regiment had got – total – 80 tanks.

The whole division had around 115 – 120 tanks on 18th of September (including 9 tanks of Kampfgruppe Seidensticker in Zamość).

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3657
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: German detailed losses 1939

Post by Peter K » 11 Sep 2008 14:10

Actually – casualties of 5. Panzer-Division for the whole campaign are unknown, as no any official account exists.

They are not included in any official accounts of tank casualties of this army or of the Wehrmacht in general.


I managed to establisch the most probable ammount of casualties of this division during the battle of Pszczyna, from 1st to 4th of September 1939.

This data was put by me into wikipedia. These casualties were as follows:

On 1st of September in the battle of Pszczyna:

Image

Between 2nd and 4th of September in the battle of Pszczyna:

Image

User avatar
Rian
Member
Posts: 142
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 22:45
Location: Czarnkow, Poland

Re: German detailed losses 1939

Post by Rian » 11 Sep 2008 18:44

Casualties only for the battle of Lvov of this division were – according to ww2 day by day:

484 dead and 918 wounded

It's wrong. That's all campaign casualties. 1 Mountain Division casualties from Battle of Lvov only: 243 KIA (incl. 11 officers) and 400 WIA.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3657
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: German detailed losses 1939

Post by Peter K » 11 Sep 2008 23:28

It's wrong. That's all campaign casualties. 1 Mountain Division casualties from Battle of Lvov only: 243 KIA (incl. 11 officers) and 400 WIA.


It depends on source.

EVERY source is giving DIFFERENT numbers (see for example also Roland Kaltenegger, "Die deutsche Gebirgstruppe 1935-1945", page 123 - he is also giving different figures...).

And numbers which you gave, are from feldgrau.com (I must add that they didn't give their source for these numbers).

IMO they are not correct – especcialy that the battle of Lvov was probably the only major and certainly the biggest battle of this division in Poland.

So I wonder how is this be possible, that in this battle it lost only 50% of their casualties – where would they lost the other 50% then ??

It had to lost the vast majority of their casualties in the battle of Lvov.

That’s why numbers from ww2 day by day are certainly more correct – 484 KIA and 918 WIA are most probably casualties of 1. Geb.Div. from the battle of Lvov, not from the whole campaign.

User avatar
Rian
Member
Posts: 142
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 22:45
Location: Czarnkow, Poland

Re: German detailed losses 1939

Post by Rian » 12 Sep 2008 15:55

My sources is not from Felgrau but from Wojciech Włodarkiewicz "Lwów 1939". Autor take his sources from german autors: Alex Buchner "Gebirgsjager in allen Fronten" (page 35), Roland Kaltenegger "Deutsche Gebirgsjager in Zweiten Weltkrieg" (page 32) and Horst Rohde "Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Bd.2, Die Errichtung der Hegemonie auf dem europäischen Kontinent" (page 309). Rohde give detailed casualities of 1 Geb. Div. included 405 KIA, 918 WIA, 79 MIA, 608 sick, 647 horses (mules), 121cars, 69 motorcycles, 72 side-car motorcycles, 678 rifles, 39 machine guns, 7 mortars, 1 light gun...
If three different autors give similar numbers of 1 Geb. Div. in Battle of Lvov (Buchner and Kaltenegger - 243 KIA and 400 WIA, Rohde 220 KIA) than why You think that true is ww2 day by day (484 KIA)??
That’s why numbers from ww2 day by day are certainly more correct – 484 KIA and 918 WIA are most probably casualties of 1. Geb.Div. from the battle of Lvov, not from the whole campaign.

I think is mistake. For ww2 day by day all 1 Geb. Div. fights (from 7 until 20-22 september) is one battle - "Battle of Lvov". It's not big mistake - becouse all 1Geb. Div. fights between 7th and 20-22th September was on Lvov direction.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3657
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: German detailed losses 1939

Post by Peter K » 12 Sep 2008 16:29

Roland Kaltenegger gives different figures as for the overal casualties of the division in the Polish campaign - I don't what he gives about the battle of Lvov.

So please tell me - what does it mean "the battle of Lvov" for those authors? - maybe only fights against the Polish crew of Lvov ?

If yes, then they are wrong, because in the battle of Lvov this division fought also against other enemies, not only the crew of Lvov.

between 7th and 20-22th September


Since 12th until 21st - 22nd of September this division was involved in the battle of Lvov.

Between 7th and 11th of September it didn’t fight any major battle.

It is just simply IMPOSSIBLE, that between 7th and 11th of September – when it wasn’t practically involved in any major combat - it lost around 50% of its casualties, and between 12th and 21st - 22nd of September – so during the battle of Lvov – it lost only around 50% of its casualties.

Those authors who claim this, simply must be wrong - by the way - what sources do they give for these numbers ?

That's why imo ww2 day by day is closer to the truth - which claims that it lost as many men as I had listed before, in the battle of Lvov from 12th to 20th - 21st of September (so even 1, 2 or 3 days before the battle of Lvov ended for this division).

User avatar
Richard Hargreaves
Member
Posts: 1317
Joined: 04 Jul 2003 22:48
Location: Portsmouth, England

Re: German detailed losses 1939

Post by Richard Hargreaves » 12 Sep 2008 21:07

Losses of Gebirgsjäger Regiment 99 before Lemberg

Grodek
16/9/39 3
17/9/39 3

Lemberg

12/9/39 5
13/9/39 21
14/9/39 4
15/9/39 2
16/9/39 13
17/9/39 7
18/9/39 1
19/9/39 20
20/9/39 10
Total 83

Holosko
16/9/39 7
17/9/39 3
19/9/39 8

Zboiska
16/9/39 1
17/9/39 4
19/9/39 2
20/9/39 2

User avatar
Rian
Member
Posts: 142
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 22:45
Location: Czarnkow, Poland

Re: German detailed losses 1939

Post by Rian » 12 Sep 2008 23:00

Lemberg

12/9/39 5
13/9/39 21
14/9/39 4
15/9/39 2
16/9/39 13
17/9/39 7
18/9/39 1
19/9/39 20
20/9/39 10
Total 83

Very good details - if 99th G.R. loss 83 men near Lvov (probally KIA??) than 220-243 KIA from all 1 G.D. is very probably.

So please tell me - what does it mean "the battle of Lvov" for those authors? - maybe only fights against the Polish crew of Lvov ?

If yes, then they are wrong, because in the battle of Lvov this division fought also against other enemies, not only the crew of Lvov.

Probably it's true. Autors give casualties from battle against polish garrison only, ww2 day by day from all campaign (included battle against garrison, battle near Gródek an fights between 7-11 sept.). Why?? Mayby becouce from 7 sept. Lvov was main object for 1 G.D. and division attacked from 7 sept. on Lvov direction.

It is just simply IMPOSSIBLE, that between 7th and 11th of September – when it wasn’t practically involved in any major combat - it lost around 50% of its casualties, and between 12th and 21st - 22nd of September – so during the battle of Lvov – it lost only around 50% of its casualties.

About 50% in Battle of Lvov (against garrison) and rest in battle near Gródek and in fights against polish 2 ant 3 Mountain Brigade (7-11 sept.). It's easy :)

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 6474
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: German detailed losses 1939

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Sep 2008 07:48

Hi Guys,

I asked some time ago on Feldgrau if there were any casualty figures for Brigade Danzig (of which SS-Heimwehr Danzig was only a small part). Has anything new come up?

Overall German losses along the Baltic coast, especially at heavily contested Gdynia, would also be of interest.

Cheers,

Sid.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3657
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: German detailed losses 1939

Post by Peter K » 13 Sep 2008 08:24

Richard Hargreaves wrote:Losses of Gebirgsjäger Regiment 99 before Lemberg

Grodek
16/9/39 3
17/9/39 3

Lemberg

12/9/39 5
13/9/39 21
14/9/39 4
15/9/39 2
16/9/39 13
17/9/39 7
18/9/39 1
19/9/39 20
20/9/39 10
Total 83

Holosko
16/9/39 7
17/9/39 3
19/9/39 8

Zboiska
16/9/39 1
17/9/39 4
19/9/39 2
20/9/39 2


Losses of Gebirgsjäger Regiment 99


This is KIA data if I understand correctly?

Hołosko, Zboiska, Gródek Jagielloński - these are all parts of the Battle of Lemberg.

So - its exactly as I supposed.

About 50% in Battle of Lvov (against garrison) and rest in battle near Gródek


Actually - Grodek and Lvov is the same battle.

We recognize two definitions:

Battle (Polish: Bitwa)

and

Fight (Polish: Bój)

We can say about the Bój of Grodek, but it is still a part of the Battle of Lemberg.

Bój Lwowski is a part of Bitwa Lwowska.

Simple.

By the way – for me it would be more interesting to establish detailed Polish casualties, or at least both German and Polish casualties – as – for example – I did if it comes to the battle of Pszczyna.

If we found exact Polish figures for concrete units in concrete battles it might be pretty much interesting.

For example I found exact Polish casualties in the battle of Seroczyn.

They were 146 dead and 40 wounded.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3657
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: German detailed losses 1939

Post by Peter K » 13 Sep 2008 08:58

Losses of Gebirgsjäger Regiment 99

Zboiska
16/9/39 1
17/9/39 4
19/9/39 2
20/9/39 2


When the Poles recaptured the hill 324 near Zboiska on 17th of September, they found over 50 dead German soldiers on the hill 324, and they captured 3 Heavy Machine Guns and 10 PoWs there.

On the Polish side 10th Motorized Cavalry Brigade was fighting for Zboiska and the hill 324.

10. Motorized Brigade (under command of colonel Stanislav Maczek) was ordered by general Langner (commander of the Defensive of Lvov region) to recapture Zboiska and the hill 324 on 14th of September. The attack started at sunrise on 15th of September.

Zboiska was recaptured by the brigade on 15th of September in the evening and the hill 324 was recaptured by the brigade on 17th of September, after 3 days of fights.

One of regiments of this brigade - 24. Uhlans Regiment (mot.) - during those three days (15 - 17th of September) lost 13 dead.

The brigade had got two regiments - 24. Uhlans Regiment and 10. Mounted Shooters Regiment (mot.).
Last edited by Peter K on 13 Sep 2008 13:14, edited 2 times in total.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3657
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: German detailed losses 1939

Post by Peter K » 13 Sep 2008 09:55

On 17th of September at 20:00 - due to the Soviet invasion - the brigade received an order from marschal Rydz-Śmigły - so from the General Headquarters of the Polish Army - to withdraw from the frontline and to concentrate in Jaryczewo Nowe region.

After concentrating in Jaryczewo Nowe region, it was ordered to withdraw to Romania.

After the 10th brigade withdrawed from the frontline, front sections of 24. and 10. Motorized Regiments were took over by 207. Infantry Regiment.

User avatar
Rian
Member
Posts: 142
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 22:45
Location: Czarnkow, Poland

Re: German detailed losses 1939

Post by Rian » 13 Sep 2008 14:42

Actually - Grodek and Lvov is the same battle.

In old polish historiography battle near Gródek - is "Battle of Wereszczyca" - not Battle of Lvov :) German autors are too old (books from 1950-80). For this autors - Wereszczyca (Gródek) is different battle.

You can named all fights in Eastern Małopolska from 7 until 21-22 september as "Battle for Lvov" (becouse for Germans Lvov was main object on this territory). But German losses in this batte don't include only 1 G.D but also casualities from german 2 G.D, 4 L.D., 5 Pz.D., SS "Germania", and some I.D. And You can named "fight for Lvov" for fights against polish garrison in Lvov. German 1 G.D. lost 484 KIA in "Battle for Lvov" including 220-243 KIA in "fight of Lvov". It's clear??

When the Poles recaptured the hill 324 near Zboiska on 17th of September, they found over 50 dead German soldiers on the hill 324, and they captured 3 Heavy Machine Guns and 10 PoWs there.

Why not?? On Hill 324 was units from 99th and 98th G.R. :)

We can say about the Bój of Grodek, but it is still a part of the Battle of Lemberg.

Bój Lwowski is a part of Bitwa Lwowska.

mhm... Than fights in Kampinos Forest, Palmiry, Łomianki, Wólka Węglowa... - must be all part of Battle of Warsaw ;) (very similar situation)


Hi Guys,

I asked some time ago on Feldgrau if there were any casualty figures for Brigade Danzig (of which SS-Heimwehr Danzig was only a small part). Has anything new come up?

Overall German losses along the Baltic coast, especially at heavily contested Gdynia, would also be of interest.

Cheers,

Sid.

I know, that SS Heimwehr Danzig lost 39 KIA in september 1939 (24 - nearTczew, 11 - on Oksywie Heights near Gdynia, 2 - unknow places, 1 - near Reda, 1 - Polish Post Office in Gdansk).
Last edited by Rian on 13 Sep 2008 20:58, edited 2 times in total.

Return to “Heer, Waffen-SS & Fallschirmjäger”