German detailed losses 1939

[Njorl]

"Disastrous in its results was the directive which ordered capturing not only Polish soldiers, but all men between 17th and 45th years of age. (53) In XI. Armee-Korps yet on September 11 the number of civilian and military prisoners was expected to rise to 10 thousands during the next day. (54) On September 16 the decision was taken on their own responsibility, that from now on yet only "soldiers and civilians, towards whom a feasible suspicion exists, that they might be soldiers in civilian clothings" (55) have to be brought to assembly points."

It is not exactly a secret there were many civilians fighting on Polish side, which were taken prisoners as well, and that many Polish soldiers tried to get rid of their uniforms and escape in civilian clothes. In fact Elble's book has lots of references to this phenomenon. Similar things happened during the Allied advance into Germany in 1945.

Of course some part of these 'civilians' were soldiers who got rid of their uniforms. But how would you explain what can be found in in KTB of VII. A.K. under Bemerkungen for 7.9.1939:

1000 Gefangene
4000 Internierte

Why were these two figures separated? Who were those Internierte? Why is their four times as high as number of 'taken prisoner' (Gefangene)?

Regards,
MJU

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Regarding German lossses at the Bzura during the first phase of the battle (Polish counterattack), Volksbund War Graves Database lists nearly 4,000 German KIA all around Poland in a four-days long period 9 - 12.09.1939:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1534830

And Volksbund online database is not fully complete as it turns out numerous times when I research it.

[Rian]

William - You are great for finding detailed german documents. Thanks for You!!

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

SS Deutschland losses (no other unit of the div. participated) in combats for Fort I & Zakroczym on 28.09.:

T-314, r. 82

Deutschland casualties 28 September.jpg (47 KiB) Viewed 929 times

In total 89 KIA and WIA. While strangely Christoph Avender's ww2 day by day:

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/

Says that SS Deutschland lost only 50 KIA and WIA in those combats:

SS-Rgt.”Deutschland“ lost 15 dead and 35 wounded.

But some sources say that apart from "Deutschland" also SS Aufkl.Abt. particpated. So maybe?

IR.94 lost 28 KIA and 54 WIA in combats for Fort III on the same day (and probably also on 27.09.).

[Jan-Hendrik]

SS-Rgt.”Deutschland“ lost 15 dead and 35 wounded.

That was what SS-D reported to II.A.K. immidiatly after the battle...

Jan-Hendrik

[Jan-Hendrik]

Guderian gives in an Erfahrungsbericht to the OKH, dated 29.9.39, the following losses for his Korps for the timeframe 1.-22.9.39:

- 650 dead
- 1345 wounded
- 241 missing

Source: NARA T78R861

Losses for 8.Division:

http://tinypic.com/r/m8jvi1/7

Source: ebd.

Jan-Hendrik

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Thanks for figures on losses of 8. Inf.Div.! It's really helpful!

Btw, even though the report is from 11.10.1939, it seems that the number of MIA might be not final and some of those reported MIA in this report might be in fact wounded ("Die Zahl der Vermissten duerfte sich noch verringern, da noch Versprengte in lazaretten, Versprengten-sammelstellen usw. sein werden.") - am I right?

Maybe that's because some of the WIA from 8. Inf.Div. were evacuated to medical posts and hospitals of other units, especially due to the chaotic character of the last battle fought by the division (2nd Tomaszow Lubelski).

Is it possible that from similar or other reasons they underestimated wounded casualties in this report?

Btw - I see that large part of all MIA reported in this report are from Art.Rgt.8. Any suggestions why?

If it comes to Guderian's Corps, its Kriegstagebuch gives more detailed casualty figures until 30 September (with breakdown for each division and for each 10 days-long period) and also numbers given by the KTB are higher than numbers from this Erfahrungsbericht. I already quoted these figures somewhere on this forum.

But it's still good to know what is the primary source of these figures, quoted so many times here & there.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Guderian's Korps only during combats in the Corridor (1 - 4 September) was subordinated to 4. Army. Later it was detached from 4. Army and subordinated directly either to AG "Nord" or to OKH (I'm not sure) and remained assigned so until 20 September (Guderian himself writes that on 18 September he received an order from the commander of AG "Nord" to withdraw his forces behind the temporary demarcation line and on 20 September at 0:00 his Corps was to be subordinated again under 4. Army's command again - according to this order from 18 September).

Guderian should reported his losses from combats in the Corridor to 4. Army. He shouldn't report those losses to OKH (this would double casualty reports because the same losses had already been reported to 4. Army before). Probably numbers from this Erfahrungsbericht to the OKH don't include losses from combats in the Corridor.

Especially that Guderian provides losses from the Corridor separately (as 150 KIA + 700 WIA / MIA).

[Jan-Hendrik]

:roll:

You comprehend what an Erfahrungsbericht means? The given numbers where just a sidenote among the reports of combat experiences....

I don't think Guderian whould have done much ado about your opinion what he had to report to whom

Jan-Hendrik

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

:roll:

You comprehend what an Erfahrungsbericht means?

Literally - review.

The given numbers where just a sidenote among the reports of combat experiences....

You should have posted this one post earlier. This is an English-speaking forum after all.

Moderators always "chase" me when I don't translate some Polish text. And you think you can write little-known German phrases with impunity (for example German abbreviation "ebd." instead of English "ibid.").

[Jan-Hendrik]

Yes, I can. That's the diffence between you and me

Jan-Hendrik

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Ojejku chyba nie.

[Jan-Hendrik]

Prawda boli

Jutro more numbers from these reports

Jan-Hendrik

[Jan-Hendrik]

From the Erfahrungsbericht of 27.Division, dated 25.10.1939:

http://tinypic.com/r/dqopsm/7

Source:ebd.

Jan-Hendrik

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

SS-Rgt.”Deutschland“ lost 15 dead and 35 wounded.

That was what SS-D reported to II.A.K. immidiatly after the battle...

Jan-Hendrik

So I can see two possible explanations:

1. The report of SS"D" considerably (by half) underestimated their own casualties in wounded.
2. SS"D" lost 15 KIA and 35 WIA while other units of the division (but which ones?) 4 KIA and 35 WIA.

From the Erfahrungsbericht of 27.Division, dated 25.10.1939:

http://tinypic.com/r/dqopsm/7

So we already have 3 different casualty figures for the 27 ID available (officers in brackets):

1. Sanitatswesen VII. AK: Blutige Verluste bis zum 3 Oktober 1939, dated 08.12.1939:

27 ID - 264 (6) Tote, 216 Vermisste, 597 (25) Verwundete

2. Gesamtverluste der 27. Division vom 1.9.39. - 10.10.39:

27 ID - 258 (7) Tote, 73 (1) Vermisste, 591 (16) Verwundete, 767 (13) Erkrankte

3. Erfahrungsbericht der 27.Division, dated 25.10.1939:

27 ID - 272 (7) Tote, 60 Vermisste, 569 (20) Verwundete

As well as 58 (6) given to new units (?) and 463 discharged / released from service (?).

But discharged / released from service for what reasons? Because of wounds?

There is also a report on losses of VII. AK on 29. and 30.09.1939 during operation "Dallmer-Zerbe":

4. Verluste bei Unternehmen Dallmer-Zerbe, 29/30.9.1939 (from KTB nr 1 Korpsarzt VII. AK), dated 13.10.1939:

29 (1) KIA, 48 (1) MIA*, 52 (2) WIA - most (all ?) of these probably suffered by Pz.Abw.Abt.27 from 27 ID.**

*If this includes also POWs then only those which hadn't returned until 13.10.1939 (as the total amount of POWs taken by Poles in those combats was 300 only near Dzwola, not including POWs taken near Janow and Polichna).

**But 300 was the overall number of POWs taken by Polish units near Dzwola. And maybe these casualties refer only to Pz.Abw.Abt.27 (without other units that participated in combats near Dzwola/Janow/Polichna).

Major Dallmer-Zerbe was the commander of Pz.Abw.Abt.27.