New info on the Panzerknackers: Viezenz, Anding, Porsch, Fey

Mark V. · Post by **Mark V.** » 20 Sep 2002 14:28

For anyone that missed a very interesting thread about Panzerknackers on the das-ritterkreuz forum, here are a »few« main points (I hope the post isn't too long):

1.Oberleutnant Günther Viezenz-a company commander in Gren.Rgt. 7 with 21 tanks destroyed.
Apparently he received KC for »only« 7 destroyed tanks and also told some collectors that this was also his total amount. You can clearly see on this picture that he's wearing only 7 Panzervernichtungsabzeichen and all of them are in Silver (though they don't all look the same because of the sunlight).

2.Leutnant Friederich Anding-18 kills
Friederich received his KC for the destruction of 6 tanks and 5 armored vehicles (so says his Verleihungsvorschlag zum Ritterkreuz), as adjutant of the Pz.Jg.Abt. Großdeutschland (commander of the battalion was Maj. Walle) on 8 May 1945. This action took place in northern Germany (more specifically in Stadensen) on 14-15 April. The battalion was attacked by a large number of enemy tanks and armored vehicles. Major Walle (9 destroyed tanks), Leutnant Anding and Obergefreiter Stützle (7 destroyed tanks) received KCs for their actions.

Now here's what Andreas Düfel (the webmaster of das-ritterkreuz website, he also lives near the town Stadensen, where this action took place and talked to several witnesses) says about this particualar incident:

»..The town was almost completly destroyed by the tank battle. A documentiation about this fightings still exist. It's interested that the town residents doubt whether there were really18-22 British tanks destroyed. The wrecks were predominantly armored vehicles (not tanks) and quite a few of them were also German. War confusions of the last days of the war could have quite led to a false evaluation of the actually destroyed tanks..«

Also an interesting point from Manfred Dörr (the author of the book Die Träger der Nahkampfspange in Gold):
»You mustn't forget that when two soldiers attack and destroy the same tank, both of them can claim they were the one's who destroyed it. That's why it's theoretically possible that Walle, Andig and Stützle together destroyed 6 tanks but they all received 6 stripes (Tank destruction badge in Silver) each.«

Furthermore here's Anding's picture, you can quite clearly see that he has »only« 6 silver stripes.

3. SS-Untersturmführer Frithjof-Elmo Porsch credited with as much as 24 destroyed tanks and a holder of DKIG, NKIG, Ritterkreuz and other similar awards.
There is quite an interesting story about Porsch and his companions from SS-Panzerjagdkompanie »Dora II« in several books (Lucas and Krätschmer), but according to his personal file in the Bundesarchiv he received only EK2 and EK1. From what I gather he was (and still) is a notoriuos lier.

Next three were considered for a long time KC-holders, but apparently they're not and since all three received KC for their tank busting exploits their total tank kill numbers are doubtful to say the least.

4. Standartenjunker Willi Fey-14 kills
First shock: he apparently wasn't even a Knight's Cross holder so the number is very much questionable.

5.Ustuf. Wilhelm Weber-the famous commander of Nahkampfschule »Charlemagne« (another non-KC holder, but credited with 13 kills)

6.Ustuf. Karlheinz Giesler (non-KC holder, credited with 11 kills)

This would leave as with Ustuf. Adolf Peichl as the one with the highest number of confirmed tank kills (11) and maybe Oberleutnant der Schutzpolizei Heinz Heuer with 13 (not yet confirmed).

You'll probably also notice that a few other KC holders in fact also didn't receive the award: PAUL EGGER (the panzer ace), JAKOB LOBMEYER (considered for some time even as an Oak Leaves holder) and GUSTAV-PETER REBER (a very interesting story about his award ceremony)

.

A new revised list:
Peichl 11
Egghardt 9-10
Walle 9 (??)
Mangold 8
Vaulot 8 (??)
Fink 7
Stützle 7 (??)
Viezenz 7
Anding 6 (??)
Apollot 6 (??)
Kiesgen 5
Nietert 5
Voigt 5
Ahrens 4
Kaiser 4
Konopka 4
Kuhn 4
Leykauf 4
Spranz 4
Bäke 3
Jahn 3
von Rohr 3
Vogt 3
Ehm 2
Lichte 2
Lorenz 2
Schwerdfeger 2

Of course this list is far from being complete so every contribution is welcome also any thoughts on this post would be great. And please visit also das-ritterkreuz Forum for further details.

Regards
Mark

Daniel L · Post by **Daniel L** » 20 Sep 2002 14:42

SS Unterscharführer Hans Hirning, 6th reg, Totenkopf Division. Destroyed one tank in close combat. Recieved the Knights cross on 2nd november 1942 for bravery in during the fightings in august/september. I don't know if one tank is enough to qualify? I found it in Waffen SS: Forging an army by Robert Michulec.

Oberstleutnant Buck (commander Pz.Gren.Rgt.2) recieved the badge for destroying one tank. (http://www.panzerdivision.org)

Peter Cremer, former u-boat ace. (http://www.btinternet.com/~gordonwillia ... awards.htm)

Eberhard Köpke, SS Unterscharführer, recieved the badge on 9th October 1944. (http://home.att.net/~SSPzHJ/EberhardKopke.html)

By the way, does anyone know who the feldwebel in panzergrenadiers in action is? The text says he has single handedly destroyed twenty tanks but the badges don't look like gold ones.

stalktiger · Post by **stalktiger** » 20 Sep 2002 14:49

Very interesting post. Blows old "facts" out of the water -- if it is all correct.
Are you only basing this on heresay ? Some collectors said this and some believe that...

How can you tell from black and white pictures what color the tank-destruction strips are ?

Of course these men remained in combat after the award of the Knights Cross (an occasion for a photograph), right ?

I am not disputing the info. if there are facts to support it, but facts and lists cannot be changed arbitrarily without good, solid, verified research and facts.

stalktiger · Post by **stalktiger** » 20 Sep 2002 14:56

Apparently there were/are several disputed KC awards.
I thought the OdR was responsible, along with the German government/military ( I assume) of attempting to get to the facts of KC awards and verify or deny late-war awards.
Alfred Regineter (stug.) did not know he had been awarded the KC until the 1970s.

Anyhow...
Where do your facts come from -- denying that Fey, Egger, and... never had been awarded the KC ? I heard of the dispute that existed between Fey and Egger personnally about awards and claims, etc. ??

I thought that Fey had actually been in a high position in the OdR ?

Please post the resources for the facts...

Thanks !!

Tolga Alkan · Post by **Tolga Alkan** » 20 Sep 2002 15:00

I knew,Will Fey destroyed 9 T-34 in Battle of Berlin.But it says,14 was destroyed.It is very interesting post.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » 20 Sep 2002 15:06

Here is the (imcomplete) list of holders of the Tank Destruction Badge from this very site:
http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/award ... olders.htm
It is based on info from "Tank Killers" by Bender and additional info from Pål Waland.

/Marcus

stalktiger · Post by **stalktiger** » 20 Sep 2002 15:15

Well Marcus,
It appears (if it is to be believed) that this book from Breyette and Bender must be tossed out the window !!
I checked out the posts on das-ritterkreuz and there certainly is a lot of controversy.
I'm not prepared to believe it all until I can read the facts with support.

I anxiously await some well-supported and documented facts on this tank-destruction and KC issue.

Mark V. · Post by **Mark V.** » 20 Sep 2002 15:22

Charlie:
I'll check Hirning.

Dale:
My intention was to inform you of a recent post on the das-ritterkreuz forum and I also wanted to see what you and any other member would think about it. I must say that I was quite astonished when I've read it.

On the second question: it's difficult but check Peichl's photo. You'll probably notice that the top stripe (in Gold) is a bit darker then the lower one (in Silver).

3. You're right Dale, but as I mentioned Anding received it in May 1945, on the other hand Vienzenz received it back in 1944-so there still exist the possibility of him scoring a »few« more. It would be interesting if you could find another picture of Vienzenz, because I certainly didn't find any other and you can clearly see on that picture 7 stripes in silver.

Again I would like to emphasize that I also find all this date quite unbeliveable and since I don't know that much about Anding and Viezenz I would suggest you to ask it on the das-ritterkreuz forum.
Regards
Mark

Mark V. · Post by **Mark V.** » 20 Sep 2002 15:27

Marcus I think you'll notice that your friend Paal also paricipated in this discussion.
Stefan (the main character in that thread) will give me some more information when he gets back in 10 days.

Mark

stalktiger · Post by **stalktiger** » 20 Sep 2002 15:33

Mark,
Hope I didn't give you the impression that I was attacking you !!
Sounds like we are both confused and curious on the issue.
I posted a question on das-ritterkreuz -- let's see what comes of it.

best,
Dale

Daniel L · Post by **Daniel L** » 20 Sep 2002 16:05

Do you want to have persons who have just knocked out one tank and unidentified photos as well?

Mark V. · Post by **Mark V.** » 20 Sep 2002 16:10

Dale, where did you get that impression?

Mark V. · Post by **Mark V.** » 20 Sep 2002 16:16

Hirning received the Knight's Cross on 23 October 1942 for his actions in August when he singlehandedly destroyed an anti-tank gun. Till October he also participated in 150 assault and recon actions. But if you look at his picture you'll notice a tank destruction badge in silver.

Erich · Post by **Erich** » 20 Sep 2002 16:41

Walter Kühn of received a total of 7 Soviet panzer kills with the Panzerfaust while in 3./Pz.Abt. 1 Although there is only one pic of him with his RK and showing only 4 Panzer destruction strips on his right arm, he went on to further successes. I have a couple of other unpublished pics of him, even showing him as Kommandeur of a Stug III.

E

Erich · Post by **Erich** » 20 Sep 2002 16:47

Pardon me, that should read Panzer Jäger Abteilung 1.

E