New info on the Panzerknackers: Viezenz, Anding, Porsch, Fey

Mark V. · Post by **Mark V.** » 20 Sep 2002 16:49

Tolga!

May I ask you where did you get that number (9). From what I heard he destroyed 8 tanks in Berlin.

Mark

Requin Marteau · Post by **Requin Marteau** » 20 Sep 2002 16:52

- SS Hstuf Karl Heinz GUSTAVSSON, RK (3 March 1945), 1 tank kill, Kdr SS Flak Abt 2/Das Reich;
- SS Brig Fhr Heinz HARMEL, 1 tank kill;
- SS Ustuf Jacques LEROY, RK (23 April 1945), 3 tanks kills, Zugfhr i. d. 1./Kampfgruppe "Derriks"/Wallonie;
- WA Uscha d. SS Roger ALBERT-BRUNET, 4 tanks kills, battle of Berlin, EK-I (29 April 1945), kill by frontovik on 2 May 1945;
- SS Hstuf Wilhelm WEBER, RK (29 April 1945), 13 tanks kills, Kdr Divisionskampfschule/Charlemagne;

Erich · Post by **Erich** » 20 Sep 2002 17:53

After reading through the threads on das-ritterkreuz I must agree with Dale totally. Who is to say that there is denial or acceptance of soldiers upon destruction of the many Soviet Panzers on the Ost front especially during the last 6 weeks of the war when acceptance documents were not even written up. As Dale mentioned quite clearly, once a soldier received the RK for destruction of so and so tanks, what if he contiued onward and not removed to a desk position and still fought with bravery as a landser scoring more tanks and not given credit ? Just because one ace and it has been claimed that he has told several collectors that his score was 7, that this is undisputed proof that all high scorers lied for propaganda reasons...........hmmmmmm.

E

Daniel L · Post by **Daniel L** » 20 Sep 2002 18:04

Leutnant Helmut Bollmann 1./fallschirmjäger Pz.Jg.Abt. 3

http://www.bollesbuch.de/40_der_nahkampf.htm

Daniel L · Post by **Daniel L** » 20 Sep 2002 18:19

Obergefreiter Willi Haschke (2 silver badges)

http://www.wehrtechnik.net/wehrtechnik/ ... affen.html

Heinz Harmel

http://balsi.de/bioharmel.htm

Tolga Alkan · Post by **Tolga Alkan** » 20 Sep 2002 20:14

Mark V. wrote:Tolga!

May I ask you where did you get that number (9). From what I heard he destroyed 8 tanks in Berlin.

Mark

Somebody posted a message in feldgrau,i think it was months ago(maybe years ago).He mentioned about Fey's activities in Berlin.9 number coming from there and my mind.I must look Will Fey's book.

Best Regards

Mark V. · Post by **Mark V.** » 21 Sep 2002 15:07

I think we must look just facts and these are:
Viezenz received the KC for the destruction of 7 tanks and because that was in January 1944, he could have destroyed quite a number of them till the end of the warr, like Peichl
I haven't seen a picture of Viezenz with more then 7 stripes in silver, but the same could also be again said for Peichl (6),
The only »real« proof (from our colleauges at das-ritterkreuz forum) againts him is the alleged conversation with some collectors

Anding:
This is quite a different story:
He received the KC right before the end of the warr, so he most probably couldn't destroy any further number of tanks. Anding's situation becomes even more complicated if you look down to see three different pictures of him. You can clearly see on the first two - 6 stripes in silver and on the third 3 in gold (top 3) and 3 in silver. Now which picture is the correct one?
Back to our friends at das-ritterkreuz forum:
-they managed to confirm the reasons why he received the KC (6 destroyed tanks)-what we already knew, but they managed to establish some doubts regarding that action in N Germany and that's all.

Regarding the discussion on the das-ritterkreuzforum, you'll probably notice that this a standard type of discussion when someone finds some new info and all the others, although not that familiar with the topic, try to explain how could this have happen and that's all.

A few more:
Leutnant Johannes Lutz-Pz.Div.116 (5 kills)
SS-Hauptsturmführer Oskar Wolkerstorfer-SS-Pz.Gre.Rgt 4 »DF« (4 kills)
SS-Unterscharführer Leykauf- SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. »H« (4)
SS-Sturmmann Schneider-SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. »H« (3)
Gefreiter Wilhelm Bremann-Pz.Gren.Rgt.128 (3)
Oberleutnant Karl Berger- Fsch.Jag.Rgt. 15 (2 kills)
SS-Oberscharführer Simon Grascher- SS-Pz.Gre.Rgt 4 »DF« (2)
Oberleutnant Walter Paulus-Pz.Jg.Abt.263 (2 kills)
SS-Unterscharführer Prinz-SS-Pi.Btl.9 (2)

Martin Månsson · Post by **Martin Månsson** » 21 Sep 2002 17:37

3. SS-Untersturmführer Frithjof-Elmo Porsch credited with as much as 24 destroyed tanks and a holder of DKIG, NKIG, Ritterkreuz and other similar awards.
There is quite an interesting story about Porsch and his companions from SS-Panzerjagdkompanie »Dora II« in several books (Lucas and Krätschmer), but according to his personal file in the Bundesarchiv he received only EK2 and EK1. From what I gather he was (and still) is a notoriuos lier.

Just because he isn't mentioned in any files means that he's a liar or ?
There are many who won high awards where the documents are missing which doesn't mean that they wasn't awarded it anyway. Files and various documents could be stored in various places, so let's say that one archive was destroyed in one bombraid, all those who had their papers there wasn't awarded anything or ?

As example, the Swede SS-Oscha. Sven-Erik Olsson was awarded the DKiG but there exists no documents proving this. All we know is that his commander SS-Brigaf. Heinz Harmel awarded him the DKiG personally and has testified it several times. Olsson served as Harmels signaloperator in the commanding vehicle so he would most certain remember him well.

Same with SS-Hstuf. Hans-Gösta Pehrsson, no entry in his file that he got the Ehrenblattspange des Deutschen Heeres, no proposal, nothing except for one small notice on a award list.

Don't be too sure that Porsch wasn't awarded those decorations.

Best
Martin

stalktiger · Post by **stalktiger** » 21 Sep 2002 21:42

I have a xerox of an Anding photo -- sent to me by Anding and signed by Anding that has a caption below the picture identifying the six tank destruction badges on his arm as being 3 Gold and 3 Silver. I think all three pictures posted here (by Mark) are the same awards. You can clearly see the difference between the awards on at least 2 of the pictures.

I also have a photo of Porsch in front of me hat shows him sitting (in the field) that clearly shows the Close Combat Clasp, German Cross in Gold, he also has a ribbon bar, Iron Cross 2nd Class ribbon, Iron Cross, Assault Badge (infantry or general - I can't tell) -- and a Knights Cross.
The KC might be added to the photo but if it is, it is done well.
He also has 3 stripes ( ??) at the bottom of each sleeve that shine brightly.

Just to add some interest -- If I am not mistaken - Mr. Porsch (alive and well) has 6 children that are very young (under 16) and one of them was just born in April this year !!!!

If I had my scanner I'd post the pics...

Mark V. · Post by **Mark V.** » 21 Sep 2002 22:31

Martin thanks for your thoughts and I hope you'll notice my responce. I guess I apparently did get carried a little away with all this thread

, but if you didn't notice I already mention in my previous posts that I was just trying to inform you of a new developments in case anyone missed it. You'll probably also notice that I don't know that much about these three tank buster gents but on the other hand am quite interested in all of these brave individuals.
Finally, Martin I would really appreciate if you're really interested in Porsch to share your doubts on the das-ritterkreuz forum, because I guess there you'll find your answers (or not).

Mark V. · Post by **Mark V.** » 21 Sep 2002 22:39

Thanks Dale, then I guess there're no more doubts about Anding. Next stop-Viezenz.

I also have a photo of Porsch in front of me hat shows him sitting (in the field) that clearly shows the Close Combat Clasp, German Cross in Gold, he also has a ribbon bar, Iron Cross 2nd Class ribbon, Iron Cross, Assault Badge (infantry or general - I can't tell) -- and a Knights Cross.
The KC might be added to the photo but if it is, it is done well.
He also has 3 stripes ( ??) at the bottom of each sleeve that shine brightly.

This is just a wild guess but does Porsch wear a fur hat on your picture.

Adrian Weale · Post by **Adrian Weale** » 23 Sep 2002 13:47

I am 99% certain that the pictures of Porsch sitting in a field wearing his uniform and medals are post war. Firstly, he looks too old: much more like a man in his thirties or forties than a man in his twenties (and somewhat porky for a twenty-something 2Lt in a 'commando' unit in April 1945!); secondly, his uniform has been subtly de-Nazified (a prudent precaution in post war Germany) by the removal of his cap insignia and the sleeve eagle.

I have a copy of Porsch's Waffen-SS service record, such as it is, from the old Berlin Document Center and it makes no mention of any decorations at all, let alone the RK, DKiG, Nahkampfspange in Gold or twenty tank destruction badges.

Porsch is pretty similar to 'Sven Hassel' or 'Guy Sajer': someone who has used his personal experience of WW2 to write a narrative which mingles fact and fantasy. Where he differs from Hassel and Sajer is that he claims to have been a real hero which the record shows he wasn't.

AW

Waland66 · Post by **Waland66** » 26 Sep 2002 13:36

Hi all!
I read in Bender's book about the Panzervernichtungsabzeichen, that Viezenz was contacted several times, but didn't answer. Are there anyone of you that has written to Viezenz when he was alive? I wrote once, but didn't got any answer. In the book "Männer und taten", Porsch is credited with 4 golden badges, but if its correct, only he knows. Another thing, normally when you had 4 silver badges, and destroyd your 5. panzer, you got to wear a golden badge. I wrote to a KC winner once, that had some Panzervernichtungsabzeichen, and he told me he didn't know about the golden badge. He was wearing 7 silver badges instead.
If only all pictures could have been in color........

Here are an example of 2 silver badges, Erich Lorenz:

Regards
Paal
http://www.samba66.com

Mark V. · Post by **Mark V.** » 28 Sep 2002 15:19

I think this is the picture Adrian was reffering to.

The picture really looks strange, doesn't it? The collar patch, the number 15, not to mention the stripes on his sleeves and his overall appearence.
Regards
Mark

Adrian Weale · Post by **Adrian Weale** » 29 Sep 2002 10:24

Yes, that is one of the pictures in a short sequence: I think I've seen two or three similar pictures. I can tell you that according to Porsch, the three stripes indicate that he was company commander and the 15 on his arm is supposed to be the number of tanks he destroyed in addition to the tank destruction stripe he is already wearing.

Checking his service record, I see that Porsch was born on 19 October 1924, making him 20 years old when the photograph was supposedly taken (March/April 45). It doesn't look right to me!

AW