Master list of all Waffen SS "named" units

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
Panzermahn
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Post by Panzermahn » 18 Jun 2005 20:20

Marc,

Thanks for the very infromative posts.
One final thought, for the moment, on named units. There has been considerable debate over the years on whether SS-Gebirgs Reg. 14 truly received the honor title "Skanderbeg" after the Albanian 21. Waffen-Gebirgs Division was disbanded. I had doubted it was more than a convenience-use name, but I have copies of some SS-FHA documents from March 1945 (courtesy of John Nelson, thanks John!) that most definitely show that SS-GR 14 WAS given the Skanderbeg title.
Yes, I think you're right Marc, the Skanderberg title was indeed used as a convenience name. I was informed that in 1945, OKW battle reports on the German forces still fighting rearguard actions in south-east Europe did have some vague references to heroic actions of "the soldiers of the Skanderberg division" (most probably I think referring to soldiers formerly from the disbanded Skanderberg division)

Marc,

As you know, some Waffen SS units that were awarded an honor title which came with a cuff title while some Waffen SS units were only awarded honor titles but without cuff titles. So, does the award of honor titles together with cuff title mark any substantial difference (at least in the perception of the soldiers of Waffen SS) with the award of only honor titles without cuff titles to Waffen SS units? As we know that, the award of a cuff title for a unit in the hallmark of German military traditions was an acknowledgement that the particular unit performed brave and courageous military actions while honor titles were some sort of mak of respect for a particular military figure or mythology.

Is there any Waffen SS unit that was awarded an honor title (but without any cuff title) as an acknowledgement of the bravery of members of that particular unit?

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Post by Christoph Awender » 18 Jun 2005 20:47

Panzermahn the title is "Skanderbeg" not Skanderberg

\Christoph

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Post by Panzermahn » 18 Jun 2005 21:32

Christoph Awender wrote:Panzermahn the title is "Skanderbeg" not Skanderberg

\Christoph
Oops, sorry my eyes must be failing me :) 8)

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Post by Semenov » 18 Jun 2005 22:51

Hi,
SS-Division Warager - early name 11 SS-Frw. Pz. Gren. Div. Nordland. About it see Cloth insignia of the W-SS (Bender Publ.)

SS-Rgt. Baranovichi it is not existed, this name m.b. for members 30 Waf. Gren. Div. d. SS but I didn't hear about it.

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Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » 19 Jun 2005 03:55

I'm not aware of units that received an honor title for special bravery without an accompanying cufftitle (for example, regiments Langemarck & Thule).

As to August-Wilhelm Trabandt (his full name), he was the commander of SS-KG-Division Böhmen-Mähren. Gustav Lombard was the only ever commander of the 31. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier Division.

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Post by Panzermahn » 19 Jun 2005 07:42

Marc Rikmenspoel wrote:I'm not aware of units that received an honor title for special bravery without an accompanying cufftitle (for example, regiments Langemarck & Thule).

As to August-Wilhelm Trabandt (his full name), he was the commander of SS-KG-Division Böhmen-Mähren. Gustav Lombard was the only ever commander of the 31. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier Division.
Marc,

Thanks for the info. So, units that received honor titles without accompanying cuff titles is just an indication of a mark of respect for a particular military figure or a mythology, right?

Has the 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division der SS "Charlemagne" (Franzosiche Nr 1) ever received the "Charlemagne" cuff title or was awarded one?

I remembered that Christian de la Maziere (still alive today), Ustuf of the Charlemagne Division mentioned in his books (The Ashes of Honor, The Captive Dreamer) that he received the Charlemagne cuff title. According to my correspondence with a friend who knew and visited de La Maziere in Paris (2 years ago), he mentioned de la Maziere had no photographs taken of him in Waffen SS uniform

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Re: Re

Post by Panzermahn » 19 Jun 2005 07:51

Semenov wrote:Hi,
SS-Division Warager - early name 11 SS-Frw. Pz. Gren. Div. Nordland. About it see Cloth insignia of the W-SS (Bender Publ.)

SS-Rgt. Baranovichi it is not existed, this name m.b. for members 30 Waf. Gren. Div. d. SS but I didn't hear about it.
Hi Semenov

I got the name from this link

http://bka-roa.chat.ru/magazine_belarus_eng.htm

Image

Any chance you could translate the title of this article?

Thanks

Regards
Panzermahn

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Post by Ivan Ž. » 19 Jun 2005 13:13

Marc Rikmenspoel wrote:As to August-Wilhelm Trabandt (his full name), he was the commander of SS-KG-Division Böhmen-Mähren. Gustav Lombard was the only ever commander of the 31. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier Division.
I got this info about Trabandt being the last commander of "Batschka" from WSSOB website,
but i guess he mixed up these 2 divisions as well, eh?

Thanks,
Ivan

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Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » 19 Jun 2005 18:59

I know that there are conflucting claims about the Charlemagne Brigade/Division. De la Maziere supposedly (I haven't ever read his books) claims that Frenchmen assigned to specialist schools were given the Charlemagne cufftitle to identify them, but I have also read that no wartime issue Charlemagne cufftitle has ever been identified. I'm at my weakest in telling wartime items from post-war fakes, I know it can be done in various ways, but I don't keep up on them. In a similar situation, it is claimed that the Flak Batterie of Charlemagne was issued the Jean D'Arc collar patch, but again, I don't know if this was true. Certainly, the mass of the Brigade/Division never received it, and used SS runes.

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Post by Panzermahn » 19 Jun 2005 19:37

Marc Rikmenspoel wrote:I know that there are conflucting claims about the Charlemagne Brigade/Division. De la Maziere supposedly (I haven't ever read his books) claims that Frenchmen assigned to specialist schools were given the Charlemagne cufftitle to identify them, but I have also read that no wartime issue Charlemagne cufftitle has ever been identified. I'm at my weakest in telling wartime items from post-war fakes, I know it can be done in various ways, but I don't keep up on them. In a similar situation, it is claimed that the Flak Batterie of Charlemagne was issued the Jean D'Arc collar patch, but again, I don't know if this was true. Certainly, the mass of the Brigade/Division never received it, and used SS runes.
Marc,

I am not sure about the Charlemagne cuff title but I am 100% sure that there are some men, if not the whole of the Flak battalion of the Charlemagne Division were issued not with the Jean D'Arc collar patch (sword and leaf laurels) but with the Celtic cross collar patch. I could connect you to a friend of mine who personally the saw a real sample of the Celtic Cross collar patch and received the testimonies of the Charlemagne veterans he met back in the 80s that attests to the fact that the Celtic cross spiegeln was issued.

The Jean D'arc collar patch was actually just a project and never left the drawing table (as Robert Forbes noted in his excellent Pour L'Europe: French Volunteers of the Waffen SS)..The Jean D'arc collar patch was actually designed for the more religious-catholic or more "nationalistic" French volunteers (mostly from the Joseph Darnand's Vichy militia and the former LVF veterans of the 57th Regiment) in the Charlemagne Division while the true SS-ers (mainly from the 58th Regiment; former veterans of the French SS Sturmbrigade) get to wear the pagan Siegrunen.

I had 2 photos from the private collection of a Polish friend showing a group of captured Charlemagne troopers in the Eastern front early in 1945. It was a relative of this Polish friend who was in the Polish army who captured the Charlemagne troopers and took the photos. In the 2nd photo, there are two Charlemagne troopers, one with a siegrunen collar patch and the other one with a black collar patch. The one with the blank collar patch were most certainly from the 57th Regiment or from Joseph darnand's vichy militia.

The Jean D'Arc was a French symbol while the Siegrunen are considered pagan which signifies the early political divide between the men of the Charlemagne division. In the end, it was not manufactured as the Charlemagne Division was sent to Poomerania in early 1945 and those men are more concerned with the impending Soviet assault rather than any fuss on kragenspiegeln.

However, the flak battalion of the Charlemagne division, that were based in Munich received the Celtic cross speigeln. In fact one must remember that the for the "religious" ones in the Charlemagne division, the Celtic Cross was a symbol of Catholicism (especially for the Celts, if I am not mistaken) and for the "true SS-ers" ones in the division, the Celtic Cross was another version of the closed sonnenrad symbol. Therefore it was acceptable to the two main "factions" of the Charlemagne division but only the flak battalion received it.

Also, if you could contact Charlemagne veterans in France today, most of them would testified that the Celtic cross kragenspiegeln was indeed issued no doubt..

For the composition of the use of types of kragenspiegeln by the members of the Charlemagne Division, my own estimation would be;

a) Siegrunen collar patch 80%-90%
b) Plain black collar patch 5-10%
c) Celtic Cross collar patch 5-10%
d) Jean D'Arc collar patch 0% (only a project)
e) No collar patch at all (might be possible as many SS soldiers ripped off their kragenspiegeln to avoid summary execution upon captured)

I believed most of the contemporary works on the French in the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS were based on the account of Charlemagne veterans and authors like Richard Landwehr, Jean Mabire, Robert Forbes.. Here is a link to one of the most comprehensive list of sources (mostly in French) for French volunteers in the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS

http://www.lesvolontaires.net/Mes_livres.html

Image

http://www.helion.co.uk/product.php?xPr ... ec=1601114

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Re

Post by Semenov » 20 Jun 2005 20:02

Hi Panzermahn,
This article unfortunately is not readable. Its title the Byelorussian detachments in Baranovichi. But I was absolutely right - it is about Brigade Siegling.

Best regards!

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Re: Re

Post by Panzermahn » 21 Jun 2005 13:02

Semenov wrote:Hi Panzermahn,
This article unfortunately is not readable. Its title the Byelorussian detachments in Baranovichi. But I was absolutely right - it is about Brigade Siegling.

Best regards!
Okay, thanks

Panzermahn

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Post by Ivan Ž. » 05 Jul 2005 18:29

I think we forgot about SS-Ausbildungs-Bataillon Schalburg.

Cheers,
Ivan

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Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » 05 Jul 2005 18:59

Ivanwss, if this is what I'm thinking it is, then the Ausbildung Bataillon Schalburg was affiliated with the Schalburg Korpset, which was really the Danish branch of the Germanisches-SS, that is, the Danish branch of the Allgemeine-SS. Thus it would not be a Waffen-SS unit, but then again, I could be wrong in my estimate of its associations.

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Post by Ivan Ž. » 05 Jul 2005 19:06

You are right.

Than we should forget about it as we already did... :)

/Ivan

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