Division von Stumpfeld

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Königstiger
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Division von Stumpfeld

Post by Königstiger » 02 Aug 2005 15:40

Hello,

I've read somewhere that 'Infanteriedivision von Stumpfeld' was part of the Romanian third Army near Stalingrad, and later part of the German Sixth Army, also in the vicinity of Stalingrad. I've never heard of this Division. A Google search brought me to this site. Unfortunately I don't speak Czech. Does someone have more information about this unit? Thanks!

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JPK
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Post by JPK » 02 Aug 2005 16:08

Bonjour Königstiger

A Google search with von Stumpfeld give:
http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/Div% ... mpfeld.htm
http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/3%20rum%20armee.htm

Hope it help you
JPK

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Post by Königstiger » 02 Aug 2005 16:19

Thank you JPK, I couldn't find it! And does someone know who the commander was, perhaps the answer is on the Czech site...?

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dragos
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Post by dragos » 02 Aug 2005 17:19

The groups Stumpfeld and Spang were formed on 24 November 1942 with the German and Romanian units on River Cir. They were under the command of the 3rd Romanian Army, with the mission to stop the enemy advance between Rytschow and Cernicevskaia.

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dragos
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Post by dragos » 02 Aug 2005 17:22

Königstiger wrote:Thank you JPK, I couldn't find it! And does someone know who the commander was, perhaps the answer is on the Czech site...?
The commander must be a certain General Stumpfeld.

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Königstiger
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Post by Königstiger » 02 Aug 2005 18:14

dragos wrote:The commander must be a certain General Stumpfeld.
Then it must be Generalmajor Hans-Joachim von Stumpfeld, The only General von Stumpfeld in the Heer...
dragos wrote:The groups Stumpfeld and Spang were formed on 24 November 1942 with the German and Romanian units on River Cir.
I know that Spang was a Kampfgruppe... And do you know what the aproximate strength of these units was?

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dragos
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Post by dragos » 02 Aug 2005 19:08

Other groups that were formed in that area were Stahl and Hollidt.
I know that Spang was a Kampfgruppe... And do you know what the aproximate strength of these units was?
At the moment I could only find the composition of the "Hollidt" Group.

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Post by Mark V. » 02 Aug 2005 19:14

Hi Königstiger,

Check this link - 1942/43: Battle-groups in the Steppe (sw of Stalingrad) - it'll probably answer all of your questions :D !

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Post by Königstiger » 02 Aug 2005 20:28

Thank you Mark V., very interesting! It indeed solves most of my questions! But it brings up one more: Was it Division Stumpfeld, Gruppe Stumpfeld or Kampfgruppe Stumpfeld? On Feldgrau all terms are used, but there is a huge difference between the three.

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Post by dragos » 02 Aug 2005 20:45

I would say Gruppe or Kamfgruppe, because it was an ad-hoc formation of mixed units.

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Post by Königstiger » 02 Aug 2005 21:31

Gruppe would be the best solution. It consisted of two Regiments, so it was too small for a Division and too large for a Kampfgruppe.

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Post by JPK » 02 Aug 2005 22:27

In Tessin "Verbände und Truppen der Dt Whermacht......." Biblio Verlag
Gliederung:
3.Rum.Armee
Dez.1 1942 Gru.Spang-Gru. Fiebig (VIII.Fl), Gru.v.Stumpfeld (Alarm-u.Resteinheiten)

JPK

Abel Ravasz
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Post by Abel Ravasz » 03 Aug 2005 09:31

Hi Königstiger,

the correct name is Gruppe Stumpfeld.

It didn't have proper regiments, but Kampfgruppen under its command - f.e. KG Selle commanded by the AOK 6 signals commander, and so on. We've had this topic here before, but I'll let go the common myths about this unit once more and for the last time.

1.) Gruppe Stumpfeld was NOT an Ost unit as many sources would suggest. It was composed of various Alarm units with personnel of the rear area services, stragglers (parts of Wer Reg 53, Pi Reg 516, Eisb Pi Reg 1, for example) and ad-hoc units, also some cut off parts of the 6. Armee's divisions. It only had one Ost Bn, Est Schuma Bn 36 "Arensburg", but none other that I know of. The Charkow II. bn was not Cossack, but an Alarm bn of rear area units from Charkow.

2.) The unit was never part of the 6. Armee. It was formed at the 3. Romanian Army 24. (23.?) November 1942, and was transferred to Armeegruppe Hoth 13/12/42 [not involving actual shifting of positions, only organizational change], where it stayed until 24/12/42. It may have been disbanded then, but this is unconfirmed. But never fought at Stalingrad, and was not destroyed there, full stop.

3.) Correct names for its sub-units are KG Selle, KG Schmidt, Alarm bn Charkow II., Alarm bn Morosowskaya II. [IV.? never heard of this version before], Pz Kp Abendrot. You can read a lot about this last unit at this link.

If You have any more questions, please ask them.

Hope this helps,

Abel

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Post by Königstiger » 03 Aug 2005 21:42

Thank you VERY much for your reply with the very detailed information Abel!

So the Order of Battle given on Feldgrau is not correct. Should it should be something like this?

Gruppe von Stumpfeld (von Stumpfeld)

Kampfgruppe Schmidt (Schmidt)
Abteilung Korherr
with 2 Kompanien
Abteilung Eisenacker
with 1 Kompanie
Abteilung Lindner
with 2 Kompanien
Abteilung Kamenberg
with 3 Kompanien
Abteilung Schöne
with 2 Kompanien

Kampfgruppe Selle (Oberst Herbert Selle)
Abteilung v.Buddenbrock
with 4 Kompanien
Abteilung Engert
with 3 Kompanien

Alarm-Bataillon Charkow II

Alarm-Bataillon Morosowskaya II
with 3 Kompanien

Panzerkompanie Abendrot (Oberleutnant von Abendrot)

And I have two more questions:

- Who was the commander of the gruppe? Was it Generalmajor Hans-Joachim von Stumpfeld, the only German General named Stumpfeld, or was it a lower ranking officer named von Stumpfeld?

- Who was the commander of Kampfgruppe Schmidt? Was it Arthur Schmidt, the Chief of Staff of the Sixth Army?

Thank again for the information.

Regards,

Auke

Abel Ravasz
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Post by Abel Ravasz » 03 Aug 2005 22:15

Hi Auke,
So the Order of Battle given on Feldgrau is not correct. Should it should be something like this?

Gruppe von Stumpfeld (von Stumpfeld)

Kampfgruppe Schmidt (Schmidt)
Abteilung Korherr
with 2 Kompanien
Abteilung Eisenacker
with 1 Kompanie
Abteilung Lindner
with 2 Kompanien
Abteilung Kamenberg
with 3 Kompanien
Abteilung Schöne
with 2 Kompanien

Kampfgruppe Selle (Oberst Herbert Selle)
Abteilung v.Buddenbrock
with 4 Kompanien
Abteilung Engert
with 3 Kompanien

Alarm-Bataillon Charkow II

Alarm-Bataillon Morosowskaya II
with 3 Kompanien

Panzerkompanie Abendrot (Oberleutnant von Abendrot)
Well, the "Abteilungen" were also Kampfgruppen, so basically it is KG Engert of KG Schmidt of Gr. Stumpfeld. A bit crazy, but these units were also ad-hoc.
If I were You, I wouldn't trust the number of companies too much; since these were ad-hoc units, their size changed constantly.

I made a mistake above: Herbert Selle was the engineer commander of AOK 6, and not the signals.
- Who was the commander of the gruppe? Was it Generalmajor Hans-Joachim von Stumpfeld, the only German General named Stumpfeld, or was it a lower ranking officer named von Stumpfeld?
It was indeed Hans-Joachim von Stumpfeld, of Arko 108. The Gruppe's HQ was formed from this unit, that was previously an attachment to the XXXXVIII. PzK.
- Who was the commander of Kampfgruppe Schmidt? Was it Arthur Schmidt, the Chief of Staff of the Sixth Army?
Well, I don't know who Schmidt was, but it was definitely not Arthur Schmidt. He stayed inside the pocket for the full battle.

Best regards,

Abel

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