Relations between Wehrmacht and Waffen SS soldiers in battle

[Helmut Von Moltke]

During the savage fighting on the Eastern front, did the normal Wehramcht soldiers and Waffen SS discriminate against each other? Or did they treat each other as soldierly comrades? I only thought of this intresting question today

[Warager]

i dont think they discriminate against each other after all they where all Germans and they where
fighting a common enemy on this picture you can see Heer and WSS soldiers together they look very
friendly with each other

[Helmut Von Moltke]

But although relations between the rank and file of the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS were good, what of the relations between their commanders?

[Wiking Ruf]

In general relation between Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS troops was good.
At the start of the Poland and West campaign, many Wehrmacht Generals had great doubt in the capacities and leadership of the Waffen-SS commanding officers as a result of the high casuality rate among troops and officers and the blunt way of operations. On many later occassions it was shown that they were wrong about this.
When reading through different books, a lot of Wehrmacht Generals did appreciate the W-SS units under their command and did thank them for their duties.

[Helmut Von Moltke]

But what about Svan Hassel's book Legion of the damned? he claimed that his Wehrmacht troops (or perhaps punishment penal troops) even shot at SS troops during street fighting, and if there was fighting between the Wehrmacht and the Russians the Russians would let the Wehrmacht a rest in allowing the Wehrmacht to mow down the SS before continiung the combat. Can this account be trusted as a very serious incident?

[Christoph Awender]

But what about Svan Hassel's book Legion of the damned? he claimed that his Wehrmacht troops (or perhaps punishment penal troops) even shot at SS troops during street fighting, and if there was fighting between the Wehrmacht and the Russians the Russians would let the Wehrmacht a rest in allowing the Wehrmacht to mow down the SS before continiung the combat. Can this account be trusted as a very serious incident?

One recommendation Herr von Moltke: Do not use fantasy science fiction books as reference for discussions about historical topics. The use of a little bit comon sense would also not hurt.

\Christoph

[giles120]

I have to agree with the previous posts. The Waffen-SS performed poorly at the outbreak of war. They received inadequate training and lacked the skilled Officers and NCO's who had an Heer background, and probably preferred to remain in the units they had joined. However, the Waffen-SS was to grow into an effective fighting machine, and their contribution to Germany's successes during the war should not be underestimated. The Waffen-SS also attracted criticism from within the high echelons of the Heer with regards to discipline and conduct.

The equipment made available to the Waffen-SS and Heer(quality, standard, type and number) would I am sure have contributed to relationship difficulties at all levels between the Heer and the Waffen-SS, and between Divisions within the Waffen-SS. Although the first rate Waffen-SS divisions Leibstandarte AH, Das Reich, Wiking, Hitlerjugend, Hohenstaufen and Frundsberg would have receieved equipment as good as their Heer counterparts(and sometimes better), the 'lesser' Waffen-SS Divisions eg SS Panzergrenadier Division Gotz von Berlichingen, SS Freiwilligen Division Prinz Eugen and to an extent Totenkopf up until Kursk would be equipped with(and have to scavenge) captured second rate armour, transport and artillery. The 'lesser' Waffen-SS Divisions would also begin to find their Panzer Abteilung comprising heavy numbers of mass produced StuGs and Marders(using out of date Panzer chassis) as opposed to PZ IV, Panther and Tiger tanks.

Many of the 'lesser' Waffen-SS Divisions were understrength and poorly equipped. They must have felt bitter against what their Heer counterparts had(ie Panzer-Lehr and the elite Grossdeutschland) and what they lacked, and also(as mentioned above), what comrades in other Waffen-SS Divisions were equipped with.

Additionally, although we MUST NOT tar all Waffen-SS Divisions with the same brush, some Divisions have been accused(and rightly so) of atrocious and embarrasing acts and worse; war crimes. Consider the performance and acts of the Kaminski Brigade RONA(29th Waffen Grenadier Division) during the Warsaw Uprising of 1944, the anti-partisan activities and the mutiny in the 13th Waffen Gebrigs Division der SS Handschar, the murderous acts and mutiny in the 21st SS Division Skanderberg and the atrocities committed by the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend following Normandy invasion. Consider also the fact that many Waffen-SS Divisions despite setbacks with strength and adequate equipment fourght bravely up until the surrender of Germany(11 th SS Freiwilligen Panzergrenadier Division Nordland during the fight for Berlin in 1945).

In summary, I am sure the the Heer would have valued working alongside the Waffen-SS at the front, and would have been disgusted to hear of the behaviour and appalling atcs committed by some soldiers in some Waffen-SS Divisions. Although I cannot remember the particular Waffen-SS Division, I remember reading one comprised men from the Einsatzgruppen Murder Squads operating in the Baltic states.

Thanks.

[Warager]

Very good giles 120 i agree with you except in this

I am sure the the Heer would have valued working alongside the Waffen-SS at the front, and would have been disgusted to hear of the behaviour and appalling atcs committed by some soldiers in some Waffen-SS Divisions

Heer also commited war crimes so i don´t think they where too digusted with the WSS soldiers

[Imad]

Very good giles 120 i agree with you except in this

I am sure the the Heer would have valued working alongside the Waffen-SS at the front, and would have been disgusted to hear of the behaviour and appalling atcs committed by some soldiers in some Waffen-SS Divisions

Heer also commited war crimes so i don´t think they where too digusted with the WSS soldiers

I remember reading that Waffen SS and Wehrmacht soldiers occasionally got into drunken fistfights off duty, mainly due to provocation by the former.
Imad

[Christoph Awender]

I remember reading that Waffen SS and Wehrmacht soldiers occasionally got into drunken fistfights off duty, mainly due to provocation by the former.
Imad

And there was of course never ever any kind of fight between two Heer soldiers after alcohol etc...
If the one was from Bayern and the second from Sachsen shall we conclude that all Saxons hated Bayuvarians?
The one was a farmer son and the other a student. Shall we say farmers hated students?
It would be good if we could put the faerytale books away and use some common sense.

The "rivalry" between the Heer and the Waffen-SS was nothing more like there is a rivalry between the Marines and the Army, two german football clubs etc...
Serious quarrels happened at certain levels which is a logical consequence when human beings are involved but they can be considered as "official differences" but claiming that they fought against each other, killed each other, sabotaged the other etc.. are totally ridiculous.

\Christoph

[giles120]

Warager, true very true re the Wehrmacht's participation in War Crimes.

During the closing stages of WW2, and the liberation of the camps, the SS(Waffen and Allgemeine) were and to this day(to an extent) still are blamed for the vast majority of war crimes and atrocities, whilst the Wehrmacht escaped relitively unscathed(I think). Was this deliberate by the German authorities in an attempt to preserve the reputation of the Wehrmacht as an effective fighting force with high military standards and values?

I found this which maybe of interest.

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/wehrmacht.htm

Thanks.

[Jeremy Chan]

I have to agree with the previous posts. The Waffen-SS performed poorly at the outbreak of war. They received inadequate training and lacked the skilled Officers and NCO's who had an Heer background, and probably preferred to remain in the units they had joined. However, the Waffen-SS was to grow into an effective fighting machine, and their contribution to Germany's successes during the war should not be underestimated. The Waffen-SS also attracted criticism from within the high echelons of the Heer with regards to discipline and conduct.

Of course, we have to remember avoiding generalisations, and with relationship between the 2 becoming quite cosy, it also ranged to the intense and explicit rivalry. You can certainly consider that feuds between the two came to the fore, with their ranks coming to blows on at least a few occassions. Each would come under the other's scrutiny more so when serving alongside each other, eg. Normandy, Kursk and Kharkov to name a few. To consider such situations, during the Polish campaign, a Heer infantry regiment rescued the LAH (a regiment back then) from encirclement by Polish troops at Pabianice. Also in Rotterdam, a member of Kurt Student's staff was killed by stray rounds from passing SS-Verfügungstruppen. Reports and commonsense tells you that a rift is inevitable is at least at times between political troops and the regular units. Cheers, Jeremy

[Imad]

I remember reading that Waffen SS and Wehrmacht soldiers occasionally got into drunken fistfights off duty, mainly due to provocation by the former.
Imad

And there was of course never ever any kind of fight between two Heer soldiers after alcohol etc...
If the one was from Bayern and the second from Sachsen shall we conclude that all Saxons hated Bayuvarians?
The one was a farmer son and the other a student. Shall we say farmers hated students?
It would be good if we could put the faerytale books away and use some common sense.

The "rivalry" between the Heer and the Waffen-SS was nothing more like there is a rivalry between the Marines and the Army, two german football clubs etc...
Serious quarrels happened at certain levels which is a logical consequence when human beings are involved but they can be considered as "official differences" but claiming that they fought against each other, killed each other, sabotaged the other etc.. are totally ridiculous.

\Christoph

Now I remember where I read that. It was Sydnor's book "Soldiers of Destruction". IIRC it was Totenkopf soldiers off duty that were picking fights with off duty Wehrmacht soldiers, according to the complaints Eicke was receiving. You're right, of course that does not mean Heer soldiers or SS men did not fight each other and I agree that people take the rivalry between the Heer and the Waffen SS to a ridiculously exaggerated level.
Imad

[Robb]

I think it would be unusual for any group of soldiers NOT to get into a fight when off duty when you consider the stress involved in not knowing whether you would live to see your next leave. There was a lot of rivalry between various units and especially between services.

In Brisbane, Australia in 1942, relations between the Australians and Americans supposedly two staunch allies sunk to such low depths at one stage that the trouble is still referred to as the Battle of Brisbane today, especially those who were alive at that time.

The Waffen SS was portrayed somewhat as an elitist organisation, and this would not have gone down well with many of the soldiers in the Army. I have never read anywhere of the Heer and the Waffen SS trying to kill each other and would imagine that trying to survive on the Russian Front would have required all their energies.

[Pichelsteiner]

The Officers of the Wehrmacht generally disobeyed the SS.
There were several reasons for this:
1. The Majority of Wehrmacht Officers didn't accept any militarical structures (also SA)beside the official Wehrmacht and view them as paramilitairs. If you read books about the founding of SA and SS you'll often find that they were established to unsolder the Wehrmacht by a 100% NSDAP-loyal SS/SA(As Rhöm wanted the SA). Besides this is one reason why the SS was declined as criminal organisation after WW-II.
2. The personal that was chosen for SS-positions often was taken for ideological reasons with a high grade of corruption. The performance and qualification was secondary, what was not acceptable to.
3. The lack of education of the SS-Officers didn't prevent the propaganda from reporting about their unbelievable deeds, as you can notice so well that some still belive it was an "elite". It NEVER was in the militarical way but in the IDEOLOGICAL(from NAzi point of view).
4. In the later years of war the corruption lead to that the SS was precedented with supplies.
5. SS-Officers often supportes Hitlers strategic ideas(who had ANY militarical education) and made it hard for the Wehrmacht to establish useful plans.
6. SS-Officers were introduced to monitor Wehrmacht-Officers after the Stauffenberg-asassination.