Here's another view of the same former Totenkopf-Pionier as in the previous image. This photo was taken after the more famous shot of the armored car and flame thrower team but before the image above.
Note the flame thrower team armed with a Wex on the left; on the right, you can see one member of the second flame thrower team looking toward the camera. He has a large blond mustache, and he's wearing an M.1919 tunic with black shoulder straps.
I wish the bicyclist and the civilian in the black overcoat weren't there getting in the way. Oh well.
TC
1. Garde-Reserve-Division
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trickcyclist
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Another view of flame-thrower pioneer
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bob lembke
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New FW Picture
TC and Guys;
Another nice photo. The photographer, who stopped down to get fairly good depth-of-focus, had to use a shutter speed of 1/25th or even 1/10th of a second, hence the blurring. Probably an overcast day. Several FW notes. The guy in the middle headed towards the photographer seems to be wearing the Death's Head patch of the Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment on his left sleeve. But, his arm motion blurs the image, but the general outline is correct; a Death's Head that was wider than high.
Note how easily the guy on the left wears his Wex. Loaded with oil and nitrogen, the Wex weighed two pounds less than the standard German field pack (not the lighter "storm pack"). Major Dr. Reddemann, the CO of German FW troops, and co-inventor of the modern (German) FW, was proud of a photo he had of one of his Flamm=Pioniere wearing not one but two of them.
I personally like the civilian touches. An interesting insight into the 1919 Berlin of the Spartikist revolution and the Freikorps are the memoirs of the times by Count Harry Kessler, a remarkable fellow, Guards officer, diplomat, quite gay (he loved those big, young strapping guardsmen!), perfectly tri-lingual, his mother was Irish, and reportedly the mistress of Kaiser Wilhelm I, but he was born in France, much more "aristocratic" than the typical Junker, but quite Left (I think he was nick-named the "Red Count") but a great snob, quite an intellectual, the publisher of exquisite limited edition volumes of poetry and art (traveling to Paris and London for the best artists, etc.). The book is widely available in English, is probably in print, (English title; Berlin in Lights) He describes the people of Berlin going out for dinner or the theatre, a burst of firing, perhaps a few people lying on the sidewalk, and night life then went like nothing happened. I have not bothered to read the German edition, which is longer, but it might have additional material of interest. The manuscript is owned by a French noble family.
The photo's juxaposition of the urban hussle and bustle, the bicycle, the flame throwers, and an armored truck painted with the "skull and cross-bones", perfectly reflects the times, although it is technically flawed.
Can anyone make out the rank of the guy in the middle with the arm patch, black pioneer shoulder straps, and garrison cap (right term?)? I am not a uniform guy. Anyone know the model of the odd steel helmets in the earlier FW photos, with the ear cut-outs? Model 1918?
Bob Lembke
Another nice photo. The photographer, who stopped down to get fairly good depth-of-focus, had to use a shutter speed of 1/25th or even 1/10th of a second, hence the blurring. Probably an overcast day. Several FW notes. The guy in the middle headed towards the photographer seems to be wearing the Death's Head patch of the Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment on his left sleeve. But, his arm motion blurs the image, but the general outline is correct; a Death's Head that was wider than high.
Note how easily the guy on the left wears his Wex. Loaded with oil and nitrogen, the Wex weighed two pounds less than the standard German field pack (not the lighter "storm pack"). Major Dr. Reddemann, the CO of German FW troops, and co-inventor of the modern (German) FW, was proud of a photo he had of one of his Flamm=Pioniere wearing not one but two of them.
I personally like the civilian touches. An interesting insight into the 1919 Berlin of the Spartikist revolution and the Freikorps are the memoirs of the times by Count Harry Kessler, a remarkable fellow, Guards officer, diplomat, quite gay (he loved those big, young strapping guardsmen!), perfectly tri-lingual, his mother was Irish, and reportedly the mistress of Kaiser Wilhelm I, but he was born in France, much more "aristocratic" than the typical Junker, but quite Left (I think he was nick-named the "Red Count") but a great snob, quite an intellectual, the publisher of exquisite limited edition volumes of poetry and art (traveling to Paris and London for the best artists, etc.). The book is widely available in English, is probably in print, (English title; Berlin in Lights) He describes the people of Berlin going out for dinner or the theatre, a burst of firing, perhaps a few people lying on the sidewalk, and night life then went like nothing happened. I have not bothered to read the German edition, which is longer, but it might have additional material of interest. The manuscript is owned by a French noble family.
The photo's juxaposition of the urban hussle and bustle, the bicycle, the flame throwers, and an armored truck painted with the "skull and cross-bones", perfectly reflects the times, although it is technically flawed.
Can anyone make out the rank of the guy in the middle with the arm patch, black pioneer shoulder straps, and garrison cap (right term?)? I am not a uniform guy. Anyone know the model of the odd steel helmets in the earlier FW photos, with the ear cut-outs? Model 1918?
Bob Lembke
Bob,
Correct Model 1918 Ear cut-out helmets.
http://www.german-helmets.com/HEER%20M1 ... elmets.htm
Regards,
Peter
Correct Model 1918 Ear cut-out helmets.
http://www.german-helmets.com/HEER%20M1 ... elmets.htm
Regards,
Peter
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bob lembke
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- Location: Philadelphia, PA
Freikorps Flame Thrower Photos
TC;
I am sure that you noted that at least three men in the last FW-Panzerwagon photo are wearing the Totenkopf patch, and several of the men have the black pioneer shoulder straps. Thruout the war the men of the G=R=P=R were spotty in wearing the various destinctive uniform features which were theoretically worn by the men of this unit, and after the war obtaining and wearing these items would also have been difficult. (I think a lot of us seem to think that these guys were focused on having every uniform detail on display, rather than to fight and to try to stay alive.) Factoring this in, most of the guys in the center of these photos were probably from G=R=P=R.
The NCO seems especially uniform-concious. Anyone have any ideas on the collar insignea that he is wearing? Can we identify the Freikorps unit from it? I have seen what supposedly was the Freikorps Potsdam insignea, which I think was some sort of a badge, but have not seen it actually worn in a photo.
If anyone has a name of a soldier, like a name on the rear of a postcard, sender or recipient, please let me know. I have built up a database of about 1200 men of G=R=P=R; unfortunately in 1919 most of them, about 75%, are dead by this time. It would be great to actually be able to put a name to one or more faces, but I am not holding my breath.
Are some of the men also wearing the "Turkish" Stahlhelm? Peter did identify the Model 1918 with the ear cutouts. When the Freikorps were hurredly organizing in Dec. 1918/Jan. 1919 they had a lot of trouble scrounging up equipment, kit, etc., surprisingly. When Freikorps Potsdam arrived at the Vörwarts building they found that the mortars and shells they had just obtained and brought were not a match; one reason that they (including my father) then burned their way in the back with the Flammenwerfer.
Mario;
I am puzzled by your question; if the pics you posted are from your collection, wouldn't you know if they are PCs or private photos? No offense; I am just interested in anyone with these photos has any material on the back. I and others can read Sütterlin as well as vanilla German and should be able to decypher any scratchings. I think that I have seen most of these photos before, certainly some and probably most of these photos were PCs, I think
Bob Lembke
I am sure that you noted that at least three men in the last FW-Panzerwagon photo are wearing the Totenkopf patch, and several of the men have the black pioneer shoulder straps. Thruout the war the men of the G=R=P=R were spotty in wearing the various destinctive uniform features which were theoretically worn by the men of this unit, and after the war obtaining and wearing these items would also have been difficult. (I think a lot of us seem to think that these guys were focused on having every uniform detail on display, rather than to fight and to try to stay alive.) Factoring this in, most of the guys in the center of these photos were probably from G=R=P=R.
The NCO seems especially uniform-concious. Anyone have any ideas on the collar insignea that he is wearing? Can we identify the Freikorps unit from it? I have seen what supposedly was the Freikorps Potsdam insignea, which I think was some sort of a badge, but have not seen it actually worn in a photo.
If anyone has a name of a soldier, like a name on the rear of a postcard, sender or recipient, please let me know. I have built up a database of about 1200 men of G=R=P=R; unfortunately in 1919 most of them, about 75%, are dead by this time. It would be great to actually be able to put a name to one or more faces, but I am not holding my breath.
Are some of the men also wearing the "Turkish" Stahlhelm? Peter did identify the Model 1918 with the ear cutouts. When the Freikorps were hurredly organizing in Dec. 1918/Jan. 1919 they had a lot of trouble scrounging up equipment, kit, etc., surprisingly. When Freikorps Potsdam arrived at the Vörwarts building they found that the mortars and shells they had just obtained and brought were not a match; one reason that they (including my father) then burned their way in the back with the Flammenwerfer.
Mario;
I am puzzled by your question; if the pics you posted are from your collection, wouldn't you know if they are PCs or private photos? No offense; I am just interested in anyone with these photos has any material on the back. I and others can read Sütterlin as well as vanilla German and should be able to decypher any scratchings. I think that I have seen most of these photos before, certainly some and probably most of these photos were PCs, I think
Bob Lembke
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trickcyclist
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Great photos, Mario
Mario:
Those are terrific photos. They were likely taken by the same professional photographer who took the other more famous images, and then he sold them as postcards to the men in the photo, or he sold them commercially. He may also have done both. So to answer your question, they are both private and commercial cards. In the case of commericial cards, the photographer would often write a caption on the negative, such as Flammenwerfertrupp, Berlin Marz 1919 or whatever.
Would it be possible for you to post a closer view of the two men with the sleeve badges in the second photo? I would like to compare their Totenkopf badge to the official sleeve badge of the flame-thrower pioneers.
The official badge was silver bullion thread for officers and light-gray cloth for enlisted men (see attached photo). The badges in your photo look white. If you can post a closer view, we can also compare the style of this badge to the regulation version.
Thanks!
TC
Those are terrific photos. They were likely taken by the same professional photographer who took the other more famous images, and then he sold them as postcards to the men in the photo, or he sold them commercially. He may also have done both. So to answer your question, they are both private and commercial cards. In the case of commericial cards, the photographer would often write a caption on the negative, such as Flammenwerfertrupp, Berlin Marz 1919 or whatever.
Would it be possible for you to post a closer view of the two men with the sleeve badges in the second photo? I would like to compare their Totenkopf badge to the official sleeve badge of the flame-thrower pioneers.
The official badge was silver bullion thread for officers and light-gray cloth for enlisted men (see attached photo). The badges in your photo look white. If you can post a closer view, we can also compare the style of this badge to the regulation version.
Thanks!
TC
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trickcyclist
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Private card made commercial
Mario:
Here is a postcard version of the famous image that we all know. I believe that it was originally taken by a professional photographer who made copies for the men in the photo and then sold it as a commercial card.
To make it a commercial postcard, the photographer put a piece of clear sticky tape on the bottom of the negative, with writing that says "Strassenkampf in Berlin: Flammenwerfer-Trupp und [...........]." The last word may be Panzerauto or something similar.
Unfortunately, the photographer cut the caption and the NCO on the left in half. Sloppy editing.
Cheers.
TC
Here is a postcard version of the famous image that we all know. I believe that it was originally taken by a professional photographer who made copies for the men in the photo and then sold it as a commercial card.
To make it a commercial postcard, the photographer put a piece of clear sticky tape on the bottom of the negative, with writing that says "Strassenkampf in Berlin: Flammenwerfer-Trupp und [...........]." The last word may be Panzerauto or something similar.
Unfortunately, the photographer cut the caption and the NCO on the left in half. Sloppy editing.
Cheers.
TC
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bob lembke
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- Location: Philadelphia, PA
Mario's Blowup
Mario;
Thanks for the blow-up. With it we can see a few more things. Both the NCO and the other guy fully shown in your blowup are wearing P 08s, the death's head patch, and the Pionier black shoulder strap, so they are clearly attired as menbers of the Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment. Most of the men in the G=R=P=R carried the P 08, not the G 98 or K 98. (My father specifically mentioned five weapons they carried in combat, but never mentioned the rifle, although he mentioned rifles in other, non-combat contexts.) Also note the two Flammenwerfer; the standard G=R=P=R basic unit was the Trupp, usually of eight Pioniere with two FW, commanded by a NCO or a Gefreiter, which many do not consider a full NCO. All of this indicates G=R=P=R men.
The blow-up shows other things. the other fully-shown guy next to the NCO is holding the Brandrohr ("fire tube") of a Wex FW with an ignitor mounted on the end. You can see a bit of the donut-shaped flame oil container of a Wex showing a bit over the right shoulder of a soldier behind the guy with the fire tube. They must be connected with a hose, not visible.
I always look with interest at these photos as I always hope to see my father, who fought in the January and March 1919 Berlin fighting; the January fighting specifically with the FW. You may remember that earlier in the thread I was wondering about the picture in the park, until someone provided a side view of the FW man. In this picture the man standing on the (his) left of the man with the fire tube could be my father, from size, body type, etc. But I do not specifically recognize the face, and I think that it probably is not him, only is not ruled out.
These photos are very interesting in themselves, and hopefully someone else has some of these, but of course I am especially looking for my father. There probably were only 20 to possibly FW men with the Berlin Freikorps in early 1919, so the numbers, the odds, are not that bad.
Bob Lembke
Thanks for the blow-up. With it we can see a few more things. Both the NCO and the other guy fully shown in your blowup are wearing P 08s, the death's head patch, and the Pionier black shoulder strap, so they are clearly attired as menbers of the Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment. Most of the men in the G=R=P=R carried the P 08, not the G 98 or K 98. (My father specifically mentioned five weapons they carried in combat, but never mentioned the rifle, although he mentioned rifles in other, non-combat contexts.) Also note the two Flammenwerfer; the standard G=R=P=R basic unit was the Trupp, usually of eight Pioniere with two FW, commanded by a NCO or a Gefreiter, which many do not consider a full NCO. All of this indicates G=R=P=R men.
The blow-up shows other things. the other fully-shown guy next to the NCO is holding the Brandrohr ("fire tube") of a Wex FW with an ignitor mounted on the end. You can see a bit of the donut-shaped flame oil container of a Wex showing a bit over the right shoulder of a soldier behind the guy with the fire tube. They must be connected with a hose, not visible.
I always look with interest at these photos as I always hope to see my father, who fought in the January and March 1919 Berlin fighting; the January fighting specifically with the FW. You may remember that earlier in the thread I was wondering about the picture in the park, until someone provided a side view of the FW man. In this picture the man standing on the (his) left of the man with the fire tube could be my father, from size, body type, etc. But I do not specifically recognize the face, and I think that it probably is not him, only is not ruled out.
These photos are very interesting in themselves, and hopefully someone else has some of these, but of course I am especially looking for my father. There probably were only 20 to possibly FW men with the Berlin Freikorps in early 1919, so the numbers, the odds, are not that bad.
Bob Lembke
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bob lembke
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- Joined: 31 Oct 2004, 19:53
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
Collar insignia
Mario;
Not an expert here, in Freikorps insignia, but as someone mentioned, several, actually many Freikorps units had collar insignia, with several being an oak-leaf spray, as these seem to resemble. Again, any one have a sharp image?
I have seen what was represented as the insignia of Freikorps Potsdam, and my memory was that it was a badge-like device, perhaps worn on the breast. That Freikorps was taken into another Freikorps in May 1919, I believe. Did any Freikorps in Berlin in March 1919 wear an oak-leaf insignia?
I am assuming that this set of photos was from March 1919, not the January 1919 fighting. Any opinions?
Bob Lembke
Not an expert here, in Freikorps insignia, but as someone mentioned, several, actually many Freikorps units had collar insignia, with several being an oak-leaf spray, as these seem to resemble. Again, any one have a sharp image?
I have seen what was represented as the insignia of Freikorps Potsdam, and my memory was that it was a badge-like device, perhaps worn on the breast. That Freikorps was taken into another Freikorps in May 1919, I believe. Did any Freikorps in Berlin in March 1919 wear an oak-leaf insignia?
I am assuming that this set of photos was from March 1919, not the January 1919 fighting. Any opinions?
Bob Lembke
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trickcyclist
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2. Reichswehr-Brigade insignia?
Mario:
I've been trying to identify that Freikorps collar insignia for years. The closest badge I've found is the one in this photo of 2nd Company, 2. Reichswehr-Brigade, taken in July of 1920.
But I can't be sure.
TC
I've been trying to identify that Freikorps collar insignia for years. The closest badge I've found is the one in this photo of 2nd Company, 2. Reichswehr-Brigade, taken in July of 1920.
But I can't be sure.
TC
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Re: 2. Reichswehr-Brigade insignia?
What do you think about Genearl-Kommando Lüttwiz? Also the Kokampf was part of this.trickcyclist wrote:Mario:
I've been trying to identify that Freikorps collar insignia for years. The closest badge I've found is the one in this photo of 2nd Company, 2. Reichswehr-Brigade, taken in July of 1920.
But I can't be sure.
TC
regards,
Mario
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bob lembke
- In memoriam
- Posts: 774
- Joined: 31 Oct 2004, 19:53
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
"Turkish" Stahlhelm
Guys;
Just looking at the offerings of a German dealer on Hunnish e-Bay who uses the "handle" souville, and saw a "Turkish" M18 helmet for sale. The description had some information I have never seen (I am not a helmet nut) on why the Freikorps troops often wore the visorless helmet. The ad also has another small reproduction of yet another of the pictures of the Flamm=Pioniere und Panzer we have been discussing, again featuring out Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment NCO in many of the other photos.
Below, if my Notepad clip works, is some of his discussion of this helmet, with the new info. Regrets to those who do not read the Hunnish language. (There still is time! I learned to read it at 62.)
- Beginning of clip -
1.Weltkrieg: Deutscher Stahlhelm M18 / türkische Version
- 1.Weltkrieg – Freikorps – WWI - Revolution – Panzerhelm – M18 – Freikorpshelm – 1914/18 -
Zum Ausruf kommt hier der wohl seltenste deutsche Stahlhelm überhaupt – nicht nur selten; auch in seiner Erscheinungsform fast als kurios zu bezeichnen. Ein gewisses „lächerliches“ Aussehen muß man seinen Trägern auch attestieren...
Geschichte: Es gibt über seine Geschichte eigentlich zwei Versionen:
Version 1: Der Stahlhelm wurde in einer Stückzahl von 5400 Exemplaren für die im 1.Weltkrieg mit Deutschland und Österreich verbündete osmanische Armee (Türkei) geschaffen. Man verzichtete bei dieser Version (M18) auf den vorderen Augenschirm um dem Träger (Moslem) die Möglichkeit zu geben, beim Gebet (mit Helm !?) gen Osten, mit der Stirn den Boden zu berühren. Ansonsten war er baugleich mit der deutschen Ausführung. Ob er allerdings überhaupt in die Türkei gelangte ist nicht belegt.
Version 2: Der M18er ohne Augenschirm wurde für die deutschen Sturmpanzerwagen – Besatzungen und andere anstehende Panzerprojekte geschaffen, um dem Träger eine bessere Möglichkeit zu geben im Kampfpanzer mit aufgesetztem Helm durch die Okulare der MG´s und Geschütze zu schauen. Und natürlich auch, das im Falle des Ausbootens der Besatzung ein Stahlhelm dabei war.
Welcher Verwendungszweck auch immer richtig war – fest steht, das dieser besondere Helm verstärkt während der Unruhen / Revolution 1918/19 in Deutschland, vornehmlich in Berlin, von deutschen Freikorps getragen wurde. Es gibt da mittlerweile eine Fülle von Belegbildern – siehe unten.
Der hier angebotene Helm ist garantiert ein 100% Original! Ich garantiere, das er niemals von irgendwelchen Sammlern, Bastlern oder was auch immer, bearbeitet, umgeändert, bemalt oder sonst wie verändert wurde! Er ist so wie er hier angeboten wird über die Jahre gekommen. Zum Helm selbst gibt es folgendes zu deklarieren:
Helmglocke: Stahlhelmglocke M18 ohne Augenschirm mit Stempelung „ET 64“ (ET = Eisenhüttenwerk Thale (?), die 64 steht für die Helmgröße – das waren rund 42% von allen) auf der linken Innenseite in Ohrhöhe. 95% Original Farbe – ein sehr dunkles (oder nachgedunkeltes) Grün. Gesamtgewicht – 1160 gr.
-End of clip -
Alles Klar?
Gruss aus Philadelphia,
Bob Lembke
PS: If you think this post is bad, I recently saw a thread started by two Armenians on the Turkish/Armenian issue (My advice, stay out of that one!), and after a few posts they started to exchange enormously long posts written entirely in Turkish, a good contender for the world''s nost difficult language. Incidentally, my only Armenian friend does not even know Armenian, only Turkish, German, and English, which may give insight into why these guys were going on in Turkish!
Just looking at the offerings of a German dealer on Hunnish e-Bay who uses the "handle" souville, and saw a "Turkish" M18 helmet for sale. The description had some information I have never seen (I am not a helmet nut) on why the Freikorps troops often wore the visorless helmet. The ad also has another small reproduction of yet another of the pictures of the Flamm=Pioniere und Panzer we have been discussing, again featuring out Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment NCO in many of the other photos.
Below, if my Notepad clip works, is some of his discussion of this helmet, with the new info. Regrets to those who do not read the Hunnish language. (There still is time! I learned to read it at 62.)
- Beginning of clip -
1.Weltkrieg: Deutscher Stahlhelm M18 / türkische Version
- 1.Weltkrieg – Freikorps – WWI - Revolution – Panzerhelm – M18 – Freikorpshelm – 1914/18 -
Zum Ausruf kommt hier der wohl seltenste deutsche Stahlhelm überhaupt – nicht nur selten; auch in seiner Erscheinungsform fast als kurios zu bezeichnen. Ein gewisses „lächerliches“ Aussehen muß man seinen Trägern auch attestieren...
Geschichte: Es gibt über seine Geschichte eigentlich zwei Versionen:
Version 1: Der Stahlhelm wurde in einer Stückzahl von 5400 Exemplaren für die im 1.Weltkrieg mit Deutschland und Österreich verbündete osmanische Armee (Türkei) geschaffen. Man verzichtete bei dieser Version (M18) auf den vorderen Augenschirm um dem Träger (Moslem) die Möglichkeit zu geben, beim Gebet (mit Helm !?) gen Osten, mit der Stirn den Boden zu berühren. Ansonsten war er baugleich mit der deutschen Ausführung. Ob er allerdings überhaupt in die Türkei gelangte ist nicht belegt.
Version 2: Der M18er ohne Augenschirm wurde für die deutschen Sturmpanzerwagen – Besatzungen und andere anstehende Panzerprojekte geschaffen, um dem Träger eine bessere Möglichkeit zu geben im Kampfpanzer mit aufgesetztem Helm durch die Okulare der MG´s und Geschütze zu schauen. Und natürlich auch, das im Falle des Ausbootens der Besatzung ein Stahlhelm dabei war.
Welcher Verwendungszweck auch immer richtig war – fest steht, das dieser besondere Helm verstärkt während der Unruhen / Revolution 1918/19 in Deutschland, vornehmlich in Berlin, von deutschen Freikorps getragen wurde. Es gibt da mittlerweile eine Fülle von Belegbildern – siehe unten.
Der hier angebotene Helm ist garantiert ein 100% Original! Ich garantiere, das er niemals von irgendwelchen Sammlern, Bastlern oder was auch immer, bearbeitet, umgeändert, bemalt oder sonst wie verändert wurde! Er ist so wie er hier angeboten wird über die Jahre gekommen. Zum Helm selbst gibt es folgendes zu deklarieren:
Helmglocke: Stahlhelmglocke M18 ohne Augenschirm mit Stempelung „ET 64“ (ET = Eisenhüttenwerk Thale (?), die 64 steht für die Helmgröße – das waren rund 42% von allen) auf der linken Innenseite in Ohrhöhe. 95% Original Farbe – ein sehr dunkles (oder nachgedunkeltes) Grün. Gesamtgewicht – 1160 gr.
-End of clip -
Alles Klar?
Gruss aus Philadelphia,
Bob Lembke
PS: If you think this post is bad, I recently saw a thread started by two Armenians on the Turkish/Armenian issue (My advice, stay out of that one!), and after a few posts they started to exchange enormously long posts written entirely in Turkish, a good contender for the world''s nost difficult language. Incidentally, my only Armenian friend does not even know Armenian, only Turkish, German, and English, which may give insight into why these guys were going on in Turkish!