Hello SES
I am in "recerach" of the exact data right now !!
But - it is not flakprotection, as i see it the Flakgruppe Creil is the Command Unit for the V1 operations, and was formed already during the developement and testfase - and The Flak.Reg. 155 (W) is the operative unit for the V1 operations.
By the way - the Flakgruppe Creil ( or part of it ) WAS stationed in Paris for a period !!!!
The command and supply (Nachschub- Versorgung etc.) was under Flakgruppe Creil - and the only operational unit in the V1 programme was ( until now ) the Flak.Reg. 155 (W).
For protection and other needs was under other regular and SS units in the area.
But - also on this i will come back later, when i have read and "studied" some more !
Regards
Kurt
kstdk.
Flak-Regiment 155
Hi,
As you know there was an underground repairfacility at Saint Leu just south of Creil. There are indications of V-1 activity just south of the river in les Carrieres, and only 1 km west of here there is a large bunker we have yet to explain.
http://www.gyges.dk/Leif%20mys.htm
bregds
SES
As you know there was an underground repairfacility at Saint Leu just south of Creil. There are indications of V-1 activity just south of the river in les Carrieres, and only 1 km west of here there is a large bunker we have yet to explain.
http://www.gyges.dk/Leif%20mys.htm
bregds
SES
Hello SES
Yes, I am aware of that also. I am looking for any information which could lead to this bunker too
Many facilities in that part of France does have something to do with the V1 operations, and maybe also to other Luftwaffe elements which was part of that, for instance in the Control and Guidence system around the V1 operations.
I think that some of the facilities, bunkers and buildings we until now cannot explain the use or type of, could in some way be involved it these operations as well, but wait and see 8)
One thing is a fact, these operations had a very high priority at the time, and Oberst Wachtel and his staff had "Carte Blanc" to rekvisition every aid they needed.
Regards
Kurt
kstdk
Yes, I am aware of that also. I am looking for any information which could lead to this bunker too
Many facilities in that part of France does have something to do with the V1 operations, and maybe also to other Luftwaffe elements which was part of that, for instance in the Control and Guidence system around the V1 operations.
I think that some of the facilities, bunkers and buildings we until now cannot explain the use or type of, could in some way be involved it these operations as well, but wait and see 8)
One thing is a fact, these operations had a very high priority at the time, and Oberst Wachtel and his staff had "Carte Blanc" to rekvisition every aid they needed.
Regards
Kurt
kstdk
Flakgruppe Creil
Do you have a Rgt. number for this? It's not listed in the March 1944 Flak-Lagekarte in Tessin, Band XIV, p.491-96, Gliederung der Flak in den besetzten Gebieten. Nor is there a Flakgruppe Creil listed Michael Holm's fine web site on the Luftwaffe (http://www.ww2.dk). I suspect it was a cover name for the administrative and supply side of the V-1 organization in France. Local Flak defense for the V-1 sites appears to have been provided, in whole or in part, by Flak-Rgt. 37 (mot.) with 8 Flak-Abteilungen and headquarters in Watten. Watten, of course, is strongly associated with the V-1 operation. Flak-Rgt. 37 (mot.) came under 16. Flak-Division.
Do you have a Rgt. number for this? It's not listed in the March 1944 Flak-Lagekarte in Tessin, Band XIV, p.491-96, Gliederung der Flak in den besetzten Gebieten. Nor is there a Flakgruppe Creil listed Michael Holm's fine web site on the Luftwaffe (http://www.ww2.dk). I suspect it was a cover name for the administrative and supply side of the V-1 organization in France. Local Flak defense for the V-1 sites appears to have been provided, in whole or in part, by Flak-Rgt. 37 (mot.) with 8 Flak-Abteilungen and headquarters in Watten. Watten, of course, is strongly associated with the V-1 operation. Flak-Rgt. 37 (mot.) came under 16. Flak-Division.
Hi Larry,Larry D. wrote:Flakgruppe Creil
I suspect it was a cover name for the administrative and supply side of the V-1 organization in France.
I agree 100 %. That is what makes my bunker - which BTW remained undiscovered even by the local historians and conrete nerds until 2004 - quite interesting.
bregds
SES
Hi SES -
If you mean the bunker described on page http://www.gyges.dk/Leif%20mys.htm, then there must be some documentation on it at the PRO in London. The Brits must have checked all of these out and determined their use during the scientific/technical investigations in 1944-45. I guess the challenge is in finding these documents in the archives, a time-consuming (but fun) task!
Regards,
--Larry
If you mean the bunker described on page http://www.gyges.dk/Leif%20mys.htm, then there must be some documentation on it at the PRO in London. The Brits must have checked all of these out and determined their use during the scientific/technical investigations in 1944-45. I guess the challenge is in finding these documents in the archives, a time-consuming (but fun) task!
Regards,
--Larry
Hi Larry,
Yes that is the one. The thing is so well hidden and off the trodden path, so if the Germans have not co-operated the Allies might have missed it. The French engineers, which otherwise documented German remains in the area certainly did. To-day you have to get within 3 meters (that's 10 feet to you) before you see it. There is no documentation in the local achieves, but they have details on a lot of other German locations in the area. My personal theory at this point is, that it was some sort of "Hard-Ops" for administrative purposes. It does not really look like a command bunker, but more like a row of offices. And it has an unfinished touch to it, which might explain why it might not have been reported by the allies.
This is not unprecedented. When the RAF disarmament SQNs asked for a list of LW radar-sites in Denmark, they got a picture perfect list right down to the serial number of each radar. But the Germans only listed operational sites. Sites under construction with the bunker completed and the antennas ready to be installed were never reported. So they are not listed in the SQNs post action reports.
The allies compiled a purportedly very comprehensive report on German Sea Coast Defences, it is worthy of a PhD. on errors and mistakes in allied reports on German installations.
bregds
SES
Yes that is the one. The thing is so well hidden and off the trodden path, so if the Germans have not co-operated the Allies might have missed it. The French engineers, which otherwise documented German remains in the area certainly did. To-day you have to get within 3 meters (that's 10 feet to you
) before you see it. There is no documentation in the local achieves, but they have details on a lot of other German locations in the area. My personal theory at this point is, that it was some sort of "Hard-Ops" for administrative purposes. It does not really look like a command bunker, but more like a row of offices. And it has an unfinished touch to it, which might explain why it might not have been reported by the allies.This is not unprecedented. When the RAF disarmament SQNs asked for a list of LW radar-sites in Denmark, they got a picture perfect list right down to the serial number of each radar. But the Germans only listed operational sites. Sites under construction with the bunker completed and the antennas ready to be installed were never reported. So they are not listed in the SQNs post action reports.
The allies compiled a purportedly very comprehensive report on German Sea Coast Defences, it is worthy of a PhD. on errors and mistakes in allied reports on German installations.
bregds
SES
(Source: R.V Jones, Most Secret War)During the bombing raids of the V1 site in december 1943, Wachtel decided the the allies knew to much about the V1 operations , so he aimed to suppress the name Flak Regiment 155 and it replace it by Flak Gruppe Creil, pulling back his headquarters 100 kilometers southwards from Doullens to a châteu near Creil, about 45 kilometers north of Paris. To change his personal identity he dyed his hair, grew a beard and changed his name to Max Wolf. The whole move was carried out in secret, even to the extent of his entire headquarter staff driving into the back streets of a town and re-emerging on the other side in different uniforms and with different transport.
The allies were informed, and recieved a report from the french resistance in the end of December 1943.
The symbol of the Creil grupe was a shield with the following figures:
W
-
8
Last edited by RS 1800 on 30 Jan 2006, 11:29, edited 1 time in total.
Hi RS 1800,RS 1800 wrote:During the bombing raids of the V1 site in december 1943, Wachtel decided the the allies knew to much about the V1 operations , so he aimed to suppress the name Flak Regiment 155 and it replace it by Flak Gruppe Creil, pulling back his headquarters 100 kilometers southwards from Doullens to a châteu near Creil, about 45 kilometers north of Paris. To change his personal identity he dyed his hair, grew a beard and changed his name to Max Wolf. The whole move was carried out in secret, even to the extent of his entire headquarter staff driving into the back streets of a town and re-emerging on the other side in different uniforms and with different transport.
The allies were informed, and recieved a report from the french resistance in the end of December 1943.
The symbol of the Creil grupe was a shield with the following figures:
W
-
8
When you quote almost verbatim it is good practice to state the source. In this case "Most secret War" p 373 and 374.
bregds
SES
I recieved two new books today, Wilhelm Hellmold - Die V1 Eine dokumentation and a publications from The United States Strategic Bombing Survey: V-Wepons (Crossbow) Campaign, dated 1947.
Two very interesting finds i must say.
Some selected info from the the Crossbow publication.
Construction of the ski-sites started in September 1943. The date fixed for the completion of the first sites was 15 November 1943
64 ski-sites where originally planned, 56 in the Pas-de-Calais and 8 on the Cotentin peninsula, another 32 sites planned as dummies were later built as real sites. Total of 96 ski-sites, wich is the same number of ski-sites identified on photographs by 22 Januaray 1944.
The first light site or modified site, was first photographed on 26 April 1944, more then 60 of these sites had been identifed before 12 june 1944. No attackes where carried out on these sites before the actual launchings.
Above info was based on the interrogation of two german POWs
(Source: The United States Strategic Bombing Survey: V-Wepons (Crossbow) Campaign)
Two very interesting finds i must say.
Some selected info from the the Crossbow publication.
Construction of the ski-sites started in September 1943. The date fixed for the completion of the first sites was 15 November 1943
64 ski-sites where originally planned, 56 in the Pas-de-Calais and 8 on the Cotentin peninsula, another 32 sites planned as dummies were later built as real sites. Total of 96 ski-sites, wich is the same number of ski-sites identified on photographs by 22 Januaray 1944.
The first light site or modified site, was first photographed on 26 April 1944, more then 60 of these sites had been identifed before 12 june 1944. No attackes where carried out on these sites before the actual launchings.
Above info was based on the interrogation of two german POWs
(Source: The United States Strategic Bombing Survey: V-Wepons (Crossbow) Campaign)