Gruppe Brandt, Brigaden 'Goldap' and 'Lötzen'

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Loïc B.
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Gruppe Brandt, Brigaden 'Goldap' and 'Lötzen'

Post by Loïc B. » 08 Feb 2006 18:03

Hello forum !

I'm glad to post on this forum after a long long long time on its alter ego. Seems to have a lot of known persons here ;)

I'm looking for information about Gruppe Brandt and Brigaden "Goldap" and "Lötzen", which protected the left flank of 3. Armee during operation "Weiss" in September 1939.

Could someone tell me :
1) when these units were created ?
2) from which Landwehr/Grenzschutz units (Grenzabschnittkommando ? Landwehr-Infanterie Regimenter ?) ?
3) who were their commanders during the Polish campaign ?
4) what was the fate of these units (disbanded/upgraded ? When ?) ?

Thank you for your help,
Very best regards,

Loïc

PS : I've ever posted this message on http://www.feldgrau.net

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Loïc B.
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Post by Loïc B. » 09 Feb 2006 20:23

Nobody's interested in this topic ?
I assumed that there were on this forum some people who have information about these units, at least Gruppe Brandt, am I wrong ? ;)

Loïc

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tigre
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Gruppe Brandt, Brigaden 'Goldap' and 'Lötzen'

Post by tigre » 09 Feb 2006 23:59

Hello Loic B. take a look here,

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... highlight=

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=4589

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=6464 HEERESGRUPPE “NORD” Group: “Brand”:

I hope be helpful. Cheers. Tigre.

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Dieter Zinke
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Brand - not Brandt

Post by Dieter Zinke » 10 Feb 2006 10:24

Gruppe Brand (01.09. - 01.11.1939 Generalleutnant Albrecht Brand, then Kommandeur 311. Infanteriedivision) with
Brigade Goldap (Kommandeur Oberst Hans-Erich Nolte, - at last Gen.Lt.) and
Brigade Lötzen (Kommandeur Gen.Maj. Otto Ottenbacher)

Dieter Z.

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Loïc B.
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Post by Loïc B. » 11 Feb 2006 11:39

Saludos "Tigre", y muchas gracias por su mensaje ;)

Indeed, it is helpful, but it's weird, I made a research on the forum before posting my question, and I found nothing. Well, I must be really bad :D

Dieter, thanks for your answer. Anyway, I have to disagree with the general you quoted : Generalmajor Albrecht Brand was effectively commander of the 311. Infanterie Division from 1st to 10th November 1939 (Generalmajor at the time of Polish campaign, Generalleutnant since October 1st 1939), and was commander of the fortifications of Königsberg in Summer 1939, but commander of Gruppe Brandt was Generalleutnant Georg Brandt, later commander of the Höheres Kommando z.b.V. XXXIII formed from Gruppe Brandt in Fall 1939.

I have to admit that sources are unclear but according to the excellent http://www.geocities.com/~orion47 (Albrecht Brand is in the "Generalleutnant" category, Georg Brandt in the "General" one) it seems to be Brandt and not Brand ;)

Anyway, let's discuss this point, I prefer that others confirm or infirm my point ;)

Regards

Loïc

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Dieter Zinke
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Post by Dieter Zinke » 11 Feb 2006 12:28

Loïc B. wrote: Dieter, thanks for your answer. Anyway, I have to disagree with the general you quoted : Generalmajor Albrecht Brand was effectively commander of the 311. Infanterie Division from 1st to 10th November 1939 (Generalmajor at the time of Polish campaign, Generalleutnant since October 1st 1939), and was commander of the fortifications of Königsberg in Summer 1939,

but commander of Gruppe Brandt was Generalleutnant Georg Brandt, later commander of the Höheres Kommando z.b.V. XXXIII formed from Gruppe Brandt in Fall 1939.

Loïc
Loïc, I fear you are mistaken again !!
Gruppe Brand = Brigade Goldap & Brigade Lötzen

in 1939 there was no Gruppe Brandt !!

Proof:
Tessin, Georg: Verbände und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS im Zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945, Band 17 (Register der Namensverbände; ff), bearbeitet auf Grund der Unterlagen des Bundesarchiv-Militärarchivs von Brün Meyer, Biblio Verlag, Bissendorf 2002
Tessin 2, page 56 and 153,
Tessin 5, page 242
tessin 9, page 111,Tessin 14, page 31

see the two pics out of this book

Dieter Z.
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Loïc B.
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Post by Loïc B. » 11 Feb 2006 19:56

Dieter,

I may be wrong, but your sources are unclear to me : there is no mention of Georg Brandt, who was commander of an unit in East-Prussia at this time. Anyway, it would be great to clarify this point, because I have to admit that your information seems good and that it was probably Albrecht Brand and not Georg Brandt. But did someone have anything else on this topic (for instance, what was Georg Brandt's unit in 1939 if it wasn't Gruppe Brandt ?) ?

Thanks.

Loïc

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Post by Dieter Zinke » 12 Feb 2006 10:01

Cher ami Loïc,

vous avez perdu la bataille, you are encircled and you have to surrender honourably, but you may retain your sword.

Here my last offer out of
Georg Tessin: "Vebände und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS im Zweiten Weltkrieg 19 - 1945. Vierzehnter Band. Die Landstreitkräfte: Namensverbände / ..... Bearbeitet auf Grund der Unterlagen des Bundesarchiv-Militärarchivs; herausgegeben mit Unterstüzung des Bundesarchivs und des Arbeitskreis für Wehrforschung. Biblio-Verlag - Osnabrück, 1980.

BTW:
Georg Brandt with the Charakter als General der Kavallerie zur Verfügung (z.V.) wasKommandierender General Grenzabschnittskommando 3
(26.08.1939 - 01.10.1939).

Now convinced, or do you want to die unbelievingly ?? 8)

Dieter Z. :D
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Loïc B.
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Post by Loïc B. » 12 Feb 2006 12:26

Here is my surrender, but I ask for military honours :D

Ok, my own researches led me to the same conclusion, but some sources are wrong about this point.
Nevertheless, Gruppe Brand commander was Generalmajor Albrecht Brand and not Generalleutnant Georg Brandt, my mistake ;)

Thanks for the scans, very interesting and useful. Do you have information about Brigade (or other level-unit) "Goldap" and the whole units subordinated to Gruppe Brand during the Polish campaign ?

Thanks for your help,
Very best regards from France,

Loïc

PS : your French is fine, far more than my German is !

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Loïc B.
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Post by Loïc B. » 12 Feb 2006 15:04

Am I wrong if I tell that Brigade "Lötzen" was not under Gruppe Brand command ?
There was a generalmajor for each unit, and in your scans, there is no indication of such a subordination. On the contrary, it's written that Brigade "Lötzen" was under 3. Armee direct command ("der 3. Armee unterstellt").

Does it mean that there were a Gruppe Brand, and separate brigades ("Lötzen" and "Goldap") ?

Thanks for your help !

Loïc

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Dieter Zinke
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Post by Dieter Zinke » 12 Feb 2006 16:01

Gruppe Brand = Brigade Goldap & Brigade Lötzen

Gruppe Brand moves to 311. ID (same commander, containing both former brigades as Regimenter).

Loïc, je suis Sarrois, ville natale: Sarrebruck :D

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Loïc B.
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Post by Loïc B. » 12 Feb 2006 16:52

Dieter,

I understand better why you speak French so well : you're a neighbour ! :D
And a very close one, because Sarrebruck is on the French-German border, if my geogaphy is good ;)

Ok for your correction : Gruppe Brand = Brigaden "Lötzen" and "Goldap".
I knew that Gruppe Brand became 311. Infanterie Division, but could you tell me what regiments were formed from the two brigades (Ldw.-Inf. Rgter. 152, 161 and 162 ?) ?

In any case, do you have additional information about the units which were subordinated to these brigades ?
I'm especially looking for information concerning Regimenter "Insterburg", "Gumbinnen" and "Königsberg", and also Ldw.-Inf. Rgt. 154.

Thanks again for your help mon ami,
Regards from France !

Loïc

PS : I received - Bill Russ' courtesy, and I think him a lot for this - three scans with OBs for Gruppe Brand and Brigade Lötzen. Some parts are unreadable, but these units are mentionned, with a borderguard unit (regiment-sized) numbered 41 (Grenzschutz-Abschnitt Kommando 41 ?)

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Post by Dieter Zinke » 12 Feb 2006 18:53

Loïc

IR Insterburg: * 01.09.1939 out of Stab Ldschtz.Rgt. 1/I Insterburg and Ldschtz.Btlen. XIV/I Rastenburg, I/I Königsberg and IV/I Insterburg
02.10.1939 dissolved.

IR Gumbinnen: * 01.09.1939 out of I: and II. Unterabschnitt / Grenzwacht-Abschnitt 61 and parts of Landwehr-Btl. A
11.10.1939 disslved and moved back to Grenzwacht-Rgt. 61

Both were subordinated to Gruppe Brand.

Je regrette, mais pas d' informations en plus :(

Dieter Z.
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 12 Feb 2006 19:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Endzeit Jan » 12 Feb 2006 18:56


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Loïc B.
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Post by Loïc B. » 13 Feb 2006 18:22

Dieter,

Thanks for this additional information.
I found that Regiment "Königsberg" (I.-III.) was formed from Landwehr-Infanterie Regiment 152 (Königsberg's Landwehr regiment, or at least one of them) and subordinated to Brigade "Goldap" with II./Ldw.-Inf. Rgt. 162 and IV./Ldw.-Inf. Rgt. 161.

Concerning Regiment "Gumbinnen", it's weird, because I found it under Brigade "Lötzen" command early September, with another regiment which was probably Ldw.-Inf. Rgt. 161. According to my source, it had three infantry battalions and an engineer battalion. Don't you think it could be Ldw.-Inf. Rgt. 162 ?

Edit : I found in an OB for September 15th 1939 that there were both Ldw.-Inf. Rgt. 162 and Regiment "Gumbinnen". So they couldn't be the same unit. My mistake.

Well, Gruppe Brand and Brigaden "Lötzen" and "Goldap" were dark units. Hard to find some clarity in this mud ;)

And I have still nothing about Ldw.-Inf. Rgt. 154 and Grenzschutz-Abschnitt Kommandos (or Grenzwacht ?) 41, 51 and 61 which were in this area in September 1939 too... :(

Thanks for your precious help,

Regards,

Loïc

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