Whose Tiger is it?

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Cyprek
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Post by Cyprek » 14 Jul 2006 15:20

I've turned on very very big contarst (I'm watching the renumbered 223) and maybe there is indeed something. If it's the battalion's symbol indeed, then it's in very similar place as in the original 223. Maybe you're right Michael and the hull is the same. I suggest to compare the position of the Balkenkreuz if possible.

The turret number on Tiger 314 was bigger and more in front of the turret side. If you compaire the "4", you see it is not in the same position.


At this point I tend to believe that they also renumbered some tanks in the 3rd Company (or maybe even both Companies exchanged some tanks)...

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H.v.Holdt
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Post by H.v.Holdt » 14 Jul 2006 15:50

The problem is we can be a bit confused now cause things we thought was for sure aren´t sure anymore. You open the lil can of worms with confirming Tiger 211 was a renumbered tank of the 1.Kompanie(great find BTW). We know more now but on other hand we have also lot more questions.

So if Tiger 223 had the same hull but another turret from a Tiger of 3.Kompanie and was renumbered, wich turret was it?

If we look on the turret of Tiger 314 and compaire it with turret of renumbered 223,

Image

then i would say it is possible that we see the same turret. Camo seems the same.

Hartmut

Edit:
At this point I tend to believe that they also renumbered some tanks in the 3rd Company (or maybe even both Companies exchanged some tanks)...


I don´t think it´s renumbered, it´s just another Tiger at Cintheaux. Tiger 311 possibly?

101yann
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Post by 101yann » 15 Jul 2006 13:46

The Tiger with the turret repainted as 223 most certainly retained the original hull of 223 of 2.Kp as seen in the N316 photos. The location of the insignia (it was painted at a slight angle as well) combined with the camo blotches leave no doubt in this respect. And why paint 223 on the turret side if the original 223 was still around. That wouldn't make any sense.

Let's bear in mind that on July 11, the 1.Kp of SS101 had to leave Normandy and handed over its last 3 Tigers to both the 2. and 3. Kp.

As we have come to realize, the photo of 211 in the forest is one such ex-1.Kp Tiger repainted as a 2.Kp vehicle.

A this stage, it's not unreasonable to assume that this 223 combo Tiger may well have used the original hull of 223 combined with a (Mid Production) turret from of those 3 ex-1.Kp Tigers, particularly since the 3.Zug (Platoon) of the 1.Kp used Mid Prod. Tigers.
If correct, then it would have been the turret of 134 presumably as 131, 132 and 133 had the coarser type of Zim applied to their turrets and it seems that the new turret on 223 apperas to have the fine pattern...

The camo scheme as seen on the turret of the 223 combo certainly looks like that of 314 as pointed out by Hartmut.
However, it seems some of the 3.Kp Tigers used such a similar camo pattern, like Tiger 342, during their stay in Mons in early 1944.
Thus,, the possibility that this turret belonged to another 3.Kp Tiger exists, just like it could have been that o 134 since the latter was an ex-3.Kp Tiger...

about 314 : I agree there's some discrepancy between the Mons photos of 314 and the photo of it (if it is indeed 314) after demise taken by Serge Varin in March 1945.
But again, it seems the turret of 314 in the latter photo no longer has any Zim so what we're looking at may be some sort of 'print' left by the original white paint (from the Mons days) that would have filtered through the Zimmerit coating, hence the discrepancy in size and shape ?

More confusion all the time.
Photos below.


Yann
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101yann
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Post by 101yann » 15 Jul 2006 13:49

Missing photos from my post above !

NB : on 313, note the discrepancy in the size and shape of the turret numbers. At least on this vehicle, the number were repainted and and it's not as though they just added the inner colour inside !
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H.v.Holdt
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Post by H.v.Holdt » 15 Jul 2006 16:21

Hello Yann,

i think we all had no doubts in the past that the Tiger on the field at Cintheaux was 314. In all books we read it was 314 and by looking on the photos of 314 wreck we were convinced quickly. Seeing the remnants of the turret number made the impression it has to be 314. But thats exactly the problem, nobody it seems made a serious go on it to confirm it was in indeed Tiger 314.

It is a bitter pill to accept now that we have a turret on Tiger 223 what matches the turret of former Tiger 314. I think the comparsion holds a bit water and it is not just similar what we see, it is the same camo, the same turret. We all are long enough in the theme so i guess every one can figured out by self that camo lines specialy around the turret number is exactly the same.

On the other hand if we compaire photos of Cintheaux 314 with Mons 314, there is nothing what holds any water. About camo its zero.

Probably the wreck on the field lost Zimmerit on the turret but also there are parts of the turret number without doubt visible. The "3" as first digit is for sure. Remnants of the other two digits are also visible but no one of them fits the digits on Tiger 314.

Further more i would say the last digit has nothing to do with a "4". What i read in the remnants of the turret number is 311(may not the original 311). 321 is also possible.

Yann,

sorry, i am not agree with repainted numbers on Tigers of 3./SS101. 313 seems to me in exactly the same position.

The Tigers in 3./SS101 were earlier prod.lines as in 1./SS101. Some of the Tigers in the 3.Komp. had pistol port in turret and some not. I never saw a Tiger of 1.Komp. with pistol port in turret. Tiger 131 for eg.had no pistol port. Do you have a pic of an 1.Komp.Tiger with pistol port?


Hartmut

Cyprek
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Post by Cyprek » 18 Jul 2006 15:07

Talking about the shoots of the Tigers numbered 313 I tend to believe that it is the same Tiger. Perhaps the vehicle was in alittle bit different position and that makes the numerals look a little bit different (but just a little bit).

Furthermore, I think the camoflauge of 342 is different when I compare it to 314. I believe the order of the camo stains on the 314's radiobox is green, yellow, brown whereas on the 342's radiobox it is yellow and green (probably). There is no stain on the upper part of 342's radiobox. What you can see in one of the pictures is just a shadow of commander's hatch.

Image

The other shoot of the same tank proves that to be true as only a green stain on the lower part of the radiobox is visible.

So they didn't attach any relevance to the order of the camo stains - just as nobody did.

I believe H.v.Holdt is right and the turret is the same.

Image

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Post by Michael Kenny » 18 Jul 2006 20:43

If '315' became '223' then where are the remains of the old number?
They would have had to overpaint the old numbers so unless they where very very careful then the cammo around '223' can not in any way be the same as around '314'
The sequence'

a) Just paint on new numbers over the old one.
no trace of the old numbers so it was not done.

b) use 2 colours to carefully overpaint the numbers with the paint as it was underneath the old '314'
Then paint in the new '223' so it seems no alterations have been made to the original cammo.
Highly unlikely given that the new '3' is nothing like any other SS 101 number '3'

The conclusion that it was the old 314 under the new 223 has to ignore where the old numbers went.

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H.v.Holdt
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Post by H.v.Holdt » 18 Jul 2006 21:04

Look on the first digit, the "2". The "2" uses the very same bow of the former "3". If you imagine what it takes to paint a "2" over a "3", then you have exactly what we see on 223. Thats BTW the reason why this number seems a bit bigger as we no 2./SS101 numbers.

The same is with the second digit, you can see the remains of the "1" . Take the pic zoom in and follow the lines of the old number 314. It is repainted!


Edit:

Well im not an artist in photoshop(others would made it better) but may the this give you an idea whats happend with the old number 314. Notice the 223 follow the same size as 314 and the new painted "2" in front has the very same position as the "3" before. It is also the same position in the camo sheme.

Image

I see the traces of the old number and i am sure if we found a better quality of this photo everyone would see it.

Image

Give me a good pointer why 223 should be not former 314.


Hartmut

Cyprek
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Post by Cyprek » 19 Jul 2006 16:30

As I wrote before I believe that Tiger number 223 is the one claimed by the 24th Lancers Regiment on 8th August.

Two tank regiments of 1st Armored Division were involved in that day's fighting. 24th Lancers was advancing south just in the vicinity os St Aignan. 2nd Armored Regiment was on 24th Lancers' left flank. A little forest created a borderline between the two attacking regiments. 26 Shermans (plus 2 Stuarts of the recon platoon) of 2nd Armored fell prey to a very intense anti-tank fire from the woods east of Robertmesnil (it is possible that there was also some fire from the left flan - Conteville village). Jagdpanzers and Mark IVs of 12th SS together with 3 Tigers (according to Schneider) were situated in that woods. 24th did little better as for the loss of 6 Shermans they knocked out 5 enemy vehicles (the divisional report speaks of 5 Mk Vs and 1 Mk IV knocked out which is impossible as there were no Panthers in the area; personally I believe that 2nd Armored knocked out 1 Jagdpanzer and the 24th Lancers 1 Tiger and 4 Mk IVs).

When the few remainig tanks of the two squadrons of 2nd Armored were retreating the Germans started a little counterattack. Some tanks drove out of the woods east of Robertmesnil in order to pursue the Polish tanks. According to the official history of 24th Lancers a Firefly commanded by staff sergeant Wojtynowski managed to knock out two of the (a Tiger and a Mark IV). Wojtynowski's tank waited hidden on a northern slope of a hill so that the German tank crews couldn't have seen him. He moved his tank cautiosly so that he could see what is happening on the opposite slope. The German crews attracted by the retreat of Shermans on the right flank didn't notice him. He knocked out the two tanks and retreated along with the other tanks of 24th Lancers. all that took place at about 15 o'clock (Allied time).

I believe that one can find a description of 223 in Hubert Meyer's book (an eyewitness speaks of a knocked out Tiger tank far away from the wrecks of the Wittmann force).

In the map below you can see the charachteristic features of the terrain and the movement of the Polish units on 8th August 1944.


Image


Image

I think that the woods that can be seen in the picture below (in the background) is the Secqueville woods. this theory assumes that what you can see is some 2 to 3 kilometres from the Tiger. The soldiers standing on and around the Tiger might be the members of Polish 1st Armored Division. As they're wearing overals it's difficult to find any insignia proving this but the emblem on a berret of one of them appears to me too big and white for a British tank badge so it might be a Polish eagle.

Image

Image

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H.v.Holdt
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Post by H.v.Holdt » 21 Jul 2006 13:32

Hello Cyprek,

your posts are allways very interesting.


To me it looks like the Tiger 223 are not standing on an open field. It seems he stand on a road with telephone poles along.

Would that match with your map?


Hartmut

Michael Kenny
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Post by Michael Kenny » 21 Jul 2006 16:21

The soldiers standing on and around the Tiger might be the members of Polish 1st Armored Division. As they're wearing overals it's difficult to find any insignia proving this but the emblem on a berret of one of them appears to me too big and white for a British tank badge so it might be a Polish eagle.



Czech soldiers.

http://www.volny.cz/ipro/stripky/vzpominky/focsob1.ht

Cyprek
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Post by Cyprek » 23 Jul 2006 22:32

Hello Cyprek,

your posts are allways very interesting.


Happy to hear that. 8-)

Once again I've compared those numerals ("314" in spring and "314" in summer) and now 'm 100% sure that you were right about them. One can plainly see that the number from later photo is smaller and more on the right hand. What is more it appears to me that the number "3" is slightly different.

Image

Image

I kept looking at the picture made in August and I came to a conclusion that I can't see any other number than "314".
Frankly I believe that what you can see in the picture from August is another Tiger "314".

If I'm correct 3rd Company used blue-yellow numerals during the Normandy campaign (at least most of the tanks).
"314" from August has white numerals, just as the renumbered Tigers from 2nd Company. I think that the original "314" was knocked out in June or July and its turret was used in "223". Simultanously they changed the numerals of some other Tiger so that it became "314" (maybe it was one of the tanks of the 1st Company?).

To me it looks like the Tiger 223 are not standing on an open field. It seems he stand on a road with telephone poles along.

Would that match with your map?


I think that the wreck might have been very close to the road (or rather a country lane...) form Robertmesnil to Gournay. I believe that what one can see in the picture number 1 is a country lane running throught the woods east of Robertmesnil. I quite can't see those phone poles that you wrote about. Maybe you could mark them or write why you think so?

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Post by Michael Kenny » 24 Jul 2006 00:54

Tiger '223' was spotted as a composite some 4 years ago.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/me ... 036014873/ (October 2002)

Be very wary of saying numbers are 'white' when it is probably just light reflection. The 2 photos of 211 show that a number can appear solid when in fact a clearer pic shows it has an outline.
Pure white numbers really do stand out.
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Post by Michael Kenny » 24 Jul 2006 01:22

Here we can see that the number '3' does not quite fit the residue left on the turret. The number '1' fits at the top.
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H.v.Holdt
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Post by H.v.Holdt » 24 Jul 2006 14:30

About location of Tiger 223:

Here is the pole(tephone i guess)

Image


Tiger 314:

I think we all agree now possibly that the wreck at Cintheaux is not the original Tiger 314?

The problem i have to see a "4" there as last digit is this

Image

There is no gab between wich you would need for a "4"

From my view this number can also be simple 311

Image

On this point i like to ask who was leader of the 1.Zug in the 3.Kompanie at this time? If the Tiger at Cintheaux was renumbered, why should it not possible we see the Tiger of the leader of the 1.Zug?

In the weeks before "Totalize" the chief of 3.SS101 was Hanno Raasch and the leader of the 1.Zug of 3./SS101 was Alfred Günther. Both lost her Tiger(Günther also his live) at EVRECY bombardement(14/15 June). These destroyed Tigers were 305 and 311 probably.

Raasch was wounded but came back to the front later and found his dead around 20 Juli.

At Cintheaux was Franz Heurich chief of 3./SS101 in Tiger 304 probably. Who was leader of the 1.Zug 3./SS101, was it Peter Kisters and was it his Tiger next to Wittmanns?

If the wreck Tiger (314?) was possibly renumbered, why as 314 again and not as 311(Tiger of the leader of 1.Zug)?

And if it was a renumbered Tiger, why it should be not possible that we are confused by traces of the former number?

A last one: Is it possible the original Tiger 311 was not the one lost on EVRECY and we have him here on the photo?


Hartmut


Edit:

I forgot to mention in the unit history of SS101 is written that Otto Blase(Tiger 314) didn´t lost his Tiger on that day.
Last edited by H.v.Holdt on 24 Jul 2006 18:30, edited 1 time in total.

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