Whose Tiger is it?

[Cyprek]

Well, that phone pole and another country lane that can be seen in the picture do not do any harm to my theory.

I've read that some people suspected "223" of being one of the Tigers destroyed of Gaumesnil. I think that the environment in the pictures is stark different. Especially the two country lanes don't fit that theory.

In the pictures we can see that the lane seen in the foreground (directly behind the Tiger) and the one in the background are going to cross in several hundred metres behind the Tiger. If "223" was the Tiger from Gaumesnil, then those country lanes should cross several hundred metres in front of the Tiger (more or less). In the pictures we can see that this is not true. As you can see in the map below there are more thing that don't fit.

Furthermore, if the pictures were made near Gaumesnil, then we should probably see some houses of St Aignan in them. But there is not a single one. In the picture we can see a large woods in the foreground (as I wrote according to my theory this is Secqueville woods). When you take a look at the map you can find out that there is no such woods north of Gaumesnil.



I think that the country lane directly behind the Tiger (the one with a phone pole) is the route from Robertmesnil to Gournay. As the route running throught the woods east of Robertmesnil is more less paralell to the one described above, I've come to a conclusion that this is not the one visible in one of the pictures (in the pictures one can plainly see that the lanes are going to cross behind the Tiger - they can't be paralell). Anyway, I've managed to find a lane that crosses the route Robertmesnil - Gournay as it should (it's marked in the map below). The little snag is that the map doesn't show the trees and bushes surrounding that country lane.



And this is how I see it now:

[Cyprek]

forgot to mention in the unit history of SS101 is written that Otto Blase(Tiger 314) didn´t lost his Tiger on that day.

What unit history do you mean?

I'm in a worse situation than most of you guys, as I don' have Agte's book (but I have the Polish sources ). I'm looking forward to the publishong of the paperback.

By the way: bear in mind that they didn't mention losing a tank in La Bu sur Rouvres on 10-11 August. For me it is clear that the 2nd company lost one. After comparing Michael photo with a Polish veteran's memoirs I'm 100% sure (what is more "Tigers in Combat" confirms that 2nd Company was operating there in those days).

On this point i like to ask who was leader of the 1.Zug in the 3.Kompanie at this time? If the Tiger at Cintheaux was renumbered, why should it not possible we see the Tiger of the leader of the 1.Zug?

In the weeks before "Totalize" the chief of 3.SS101 was Hanno Raasch and the leader of the 1.Zug of 3./SS101 was Alfred Günther. Both lost her Tiger(Günther also his live) at EVRECY bombardement(14/15 June). These destroyed Tigers were 305 and 311 probably.

Raasch was wounded but came back to the front later and found his dead around 20 Juli.

At Cintheaux was Franz Heurich chief of 3./SS101 in Tiger 304 probably. Who was leader of the 1.Zug 3./SS101, was it Peter Kisters and was it his Tiger next to Wittmanns?

If the wreck Tiger (314?) was possibly renumbered, why as 314 again and not as 311(Tiger of the leader of 1.Zug)?

And if it was a renumbered Tiger, why it should be not possible that we are confused by traces of the former number?

A last one: Is it possible the original Tiger 311 was not the one lost on EVRECY and we have him here on the photo?

Well, Hartmut to be frank with you I believe that the last number is "4". Of course I can imagine a situation when some paint was accidentally removed (during the battle) and what we can see in the picture is a mixture of the old and new numerals. But this would be a hell of a coincidence.

All the books I have agree that the tank commanders who participated in Wittmann's last battle were:

- Kisters;
- Heurich;
- von Westernhagen's brother;
- Hoflinger;
- Dollinger;
- Ihrion

and Wittmann himself.

For whole I know Heurich's and von Westernhagen's were the only tanks not to be knocked out. The conclusion is that Heurich couldn't have used "304" as that particular tank was amog the 6 Tigers destroyed on that day.

I see it that way:

- Wittmann: "007";
- Dollinger: "009";
- Hoflinger: "304" (Hoflinger's tank was the one standing near the Route Nationale so it must be "304");
- Kisters "312" (I assume that he didn't lose his tank before 8th August; I think that it is the Tiger very close to a country lane in the air photo);
- Ihrion: "314".

Untersturmführer Ihrion was from the battalion's headquarters so it may appear strange that he used "314". But, bear in mind that the staff platoon got 2 extra Tigers in the beginnig of August (it had 5 tanks).

Maybe somebody happens to know where the picture from the hill 112 (the wreck of "311") comes from? I mean who made that picture.

Now, take a look at this.



I believe that the Tiger from the picture below (in the foreground) is "211". Compare the battalion's symbol and camouflage. I also think that the first numebr on the turret is visible. It might be a white "2" to me.



And this might be the end of the original "211".



The Balkenkreuz is in the same place and so is the battalion's symbol. The Zimmerit on the turret is big just like in "211".

The question is: has that Tiger a later type of wheels. Maybe it has. I believe that such a wheel can be seen on the right hand.



I was also trying to identify this one.



What is clear is that it is a tank from the 2nd Company, it had been towed and was abandoned later. I was close to assume that this one is the original "211" (I think that some white numerals can be seen on the turret - maybe a "1"?; the camoflauge stains also seem to be similar; the battalion's symbol is almost in the same please - it is a little bit down and that makes me think that it isn't "211").

I've compared the battalion's symbol with those of the other tanks of 2nd Company. My conclusion is that it's the only picture of that tank I have (none fits). It might be: 212, 213, 224, 233, 234.

This number "1" which I think I can see there makes me think that it's either 212 or 213.

I believe there is another picture which shows that particular tank being towed by a newly pained Tiger (unfortunately it doesn't bring any light to the case as our Tiger is barely seen).

[Michael Kenny]

Cyprek, the Tiger you think could be '211' is in fact '231'

If you compare the photos you can match:

1) The shell hit on the drivers visor.

2) The small (MG?) pattern of chips on the R/H (as you look at it) of the vertical front hull plate

3) The 'V' shaped indentation in the outside of the front mudflap

4) Lastly the number '231'can be seen faintly in the wreck photo!

You will get nowheree trying to match commanders to individual Tigers. There were far more men than Tigers.

[Cyprek]

Yep, you're right. It is "231".

[Cyprek]

"304" is probably the only Tiger photographed in the first half of August about which we can be 100% sure that it wasn't renumbered. Take a look at the camouflage. It's identical. If we assume that this tank was knocked out near Gaumesnil, then it is clear that it is Hoflinger's. In his personal account Hoflinger says that his tank was knocked out directly on the Route Nationale. No other tank was so close to the highway. To be specific what one can see in the picture is a Tiger beside a road. There is a simple explanation: Canadians removed the tank as they badly needed the road to send troops and supplies.







BTW: don't you think that the number "0" from the wreck suspected of being "009" is kind of bigger than the numerals in the earlier photo of "009"???

[Michael Kenny]

Tiger '304' made it over the Seine. It was not destroyed anywhere near Falaise.


http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1153127201/

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1149418091/

[H.v.Holdt]

Well Cyprek,

some things are going a little out of route for me here.

The unit history i mentioned was the only basic and original one written by Werner Wendt and the other SS101/501 veterans. Its printed in Agte´s book.

Wittmann had 8 Tigers on hand at Cintheaux. Commanders of the 8 Tigers were:

Wittmann
Dollinger
Höflinger
Heurich
von Westernhagen
Iriohn
Kisters
Blase

Commanders who lost her Tiger there:

Wittmann 007
Dollinger 009
Höflinger ???
Iriohn ???
Kisters ???

von Westernhagen(313) was somewhere near Dollinger and didn´t lost his Tiger.
Heurich(304) was behind all others and didn´t lost his Tiger
Blase(314) was somewhere....and didn´t lost his Tiger( that is really in question for me)

Why should Höflinger commanding Tiger 304 on that day ??? If he had 304 then 304 was lost on that day cause Höflinger lost his Tiger. But 304 had a longer life it seems.

If the staff was boosted in these days, than it has nothing to do with the system of tank
code numbers, reorganisation/renumbering or so. That was a personal thing.

Heurich was chief of the 3./SS101 and therefore he commanded Tiger 304.

Hartmut

[MarioL]

Hartmut,
why do you say Höflinger had the "009"?
Dollinger was the signal officer,so he should have the "009".

[Cyprek]

Let's put it that way.

Hauptsturmführer Hans Hoflinger was from battalion's headquarters (I don't have Agte's book yet but I have Reid's which compensates a little bit; Reid says that Hoflinger was "operations officcer of the battalion"). This means that normally he should be using one of the Tigers from the headquarters ("008"?). But as I wrote before in the beginning of August the number of tanks in staff platoon was increased to 5. They got 2 extra vehicles. They could have any numerals. Hoflinger's Tiger was knocked out by the Canadians. From Hoflinger's account one can learn that he drove paralell to Wittmann's Tiger (more or less) on the left side of Route Nationale. Canadian accounts mention a Tiger being knocked out directly on the Route Nationale and south of Gaumesnil. It highly probable that it was Hoflinger's. For me it is clear that I haven't seen a photo of that Tiger yet. It should be close to a highway. Also houses of Gaumesnil or Cintheaux might be visible in the picture.

Untersturmführer Helmut Dollinger was battalion's signals officcer. The same remarks as to Hoflinger's tank... Originally he should be using "009" so he might have used that tank on that particular day. There is a photo of a tank which is suspected of being "009". One can plainly see that the first number is "0". The remaining were removed by the explosion. Yann wrote that he is sure that the numerals are "009" as he saw another picture of that vehicle. In Schneider's book there is a photo of "009", I have a funny feeling that the numerals are smaller than this "0" from the wreck. In his personal account Dollinger says that his tank was the leading one. When I compare the photo of "0XX" with the aerial photo of the leading tank I'm nearly sure that the turret is in a different position.Maybe some French children wre playing tank aces... In Hubert Meyer's book one can find an account of Sturmmann Alfred Bahlo (MG gunner in Dollinger's tank). He says that " The hit which our Panzer took slammed through the right side wall. The shell exploded inside the fighting compartment (...)". This is correct with the photo of "0XX" as we can't see any penetration on the left side of the tank.

Untersturmführer Willi Ihrion was from the 3rd Company (according to Reid). As an officcer he might have been a platoon leader. Sturmmann Alfred Bahlo wrote that Ihrion's tank was the third (Bahlo and Oberscharführer Schott were going after that tank becouse they thought that Ihrion would take the wounded Schott along). Usually people say that the third tank from the aerial photo is "314". The environment is similar so I tend to agree with it. Although I think that the turret is in a slightly different position. The only penetration we can see in the pictures is on the left side of the turret (so it can't be Dollinger's; there is also no highway so it can't be Hoflinger's). It might have been destroyed by the Canadians in Gaumesnil.

Oberscharführer Peter Kisters was from the 3rd Comapny. In June he used Tiger "312". For whole I know "312" hadn't been knocked out before so he might have used it. I believe that his Tiger is the second from the north (the one close to a country lane in the aerial photo).

Hauptsturmführer Franz Heurich was the commander of the 3rd Comapany. I believe that Schneider's book says that the commander's tank ("305") was lost on 20th June due to an air raid. But is clear that "304" hadn't been lost before 8th August. He could have used that tank. If Michael is correct "304" survived 8th August (I haven't seen the secondphoto of the tank preparing to cross Seine so I'm not 100% sure but maybe 80%). So did Heurich's tank (bearing in mind that it wasn't "223" but this would be very weird - 3rd Company's commander using a tank with numerals idicating 2nd Company).

Oberscharführer Rolf von Westernhagen was from the 3rd Company. His tank also made it. In June von westernhagen used "334" but this tank was lost. I don't have an idea what the number of hist next Tiger was.

The presence of "223" is weird. Firstly it's from the 2nd Company. Secondly for some mysterious reasons it didn't participate in Wittmann's attack (or maybe it was in the very end of the column and so nobody mentions it?). Anyway it seems that around 3 PM it appeared near Robertmesnil and was fighting Polish Shermans. Schneider's book mentions three Tigers fighting Polish attack. Perhaps the remaining two Tigers were von Westernhagen's and Heurich's. But there might have been more Tigers. Bear in mind that there were 10 operational Tigers in Caen sector on 7th August (according to Schneider's book). Those of the Wittmann's force + "223" = 8. Why "223" didn't participate in Wittmann'a attack is a good question. I have several explanations. It might have got lost, it might have got some different task. Maybe it was a newly repaired tank that arrived from the workshop around 3 PM (this would explain why it is from the 2nd Company). Although as I wrote before the staff platoon got 2 extra tanks in the beginning of August. Maybe "223" was one of them?

von Westernhagen(313) was somewhere near Dollinger and didn´t lost his Tiger.
Heurich(304) was behind all others and didn´t lost his Tiger
Blase(314) was somewhere....and didn´t lost his Tiger( that is really in question for me)

Why did you match them like this?

For whole I know Blase commanded "314" in June. On 8th August he could have been half way to Vladivostok to me.

[H.v.Holdt]

I allways mix up Höflinger and Dollinger. Sorry for confusion!

I meant von Westernhagen´s Tiger was near Höflinger in the battle.

From the unit history of SS101 it´s very clear that von Westernhagen was a "Halbzugführer" in Günthers 1.Zug of 3./SS101. For me this means he commanded Tiger 313.

I mentioned the 3 Commanders von Westernhagen, Heurich and Blase because the was involved in the fight but they didn´t lost her Tigers.

So if you think Blase could be on his way to anywhere on 8.August it isn´t relevant. Blase was one of the 7 Commanders with her Tigers around Wittmann at Cintheaux!

And i mentioned Heurich because he was chief of the 3./SS101 and therefore(cause 305 was lost weeks before at EVRECY) he have to use Tiger 304. You said Höflinger used probably 304 on that day remember?

Presence of Tigers of 2./SS101: Höflinger for example was from the 2.Kompanie. If he was in the staff at this time it dosn´t mean that he don´t use his Tiger from the 2.Kompanie further.

Hartmut


Edit:

I like to repeat my question about Tiger 313. Do any one know where this Tiger was lost and from what time and area the last photo of 313 is?

[Cyprek]

For those who haven't seen it yet here is a link to an interesting discussion (it turns out that the towing vehicle is "222" - for me it's new - in the thread one can find a detailed explanation).

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/th ... ight%21%21

[Cyprek]

I've come back to this Tiger.



Below is my theory about it. It's mainly based on the way of elimination.

Firstly I excluded all the tanks of the second platoon. This platoon didn't remove the Zimmerit before painting the battalion's symbol. In the picture we can see that the Zimmerit was removed. For the same reason I excluded "204".

Secondly I excluded 205, 212, 231 and 232 as the battalion's symbol is in a different position in those tanks.

I was a little ambivalent about 211 (for whole I know a piture of that tank's wreck isn't known). Finally I've come to a conclusion that it's a different tank.

As you can see in the picture below the battalion's symbol is in a slightly different place (although the camo stains are quite similar).



Moreover I believe that the wreck has a different type of the turret than 211.





If we assume that this is the original "214"("Tigers in Combat" says so, which of course doesn't mean it must be true; anyway, for some reason Schneider and Wendt wrote that this is "214")...



...then what is left are: "233", "234" and "213".

Now, let's take a look at the turret.



In my view what can be seen is:



If so "233" and "234" are excluded. Of course if one doesn't believe that the tank knocked out near Cheux is "214" he can still consider our wreck to be "214". To me the last number in the wreck's turret (or rather: what is left of it) doesn't look like a "4".

In that case what is left is "213".

[Cyprek]

Having assumed that the wreck seen in the picture above is indeed "213" I come to several conclusions.

"213" was the tank oryginally used by Hauptscharführer Höflinger (he wasn't Hauptsturmführer - I rewrote a wrong rank basing on one publication). Now there is a question: is it the vehicle that Höflinger used on 8th August and that was lost?

Ifn the picture we can see that the Tiger was towed. Could the Germans move the Höflinger's tank to some different location? I don't think so as they they didn't control the area after the battle. On 9th August the Canadians seized the terrain south of Gaumesnil. They could have moved this Tiger. But what for? If the wreck had been directly on the Route Nationale then they might have wanted to clear the way. But was the wreck standing on Route Nationale for sure (and why would they tow it instead of using a bulldozer?)?

For one more time I've read proper fragments of Brian Reid's book. The map from Reid's book shows Höflinger's tank standing directly on the Route Nationale south of Gaumesnil but the personal accounts ( Höflinger's and Radley-Waters') suggest that it might have been different. Höflinger wrote that he and von Westernhagen were advancing west of Route Nationale. Radley-Waters' was the commander of Canadian tank squadron stationed in Gaumesnil. They claimed two Tigers. First was "beside Route Nationale" (most probably "007") second was "to the rear" and was leading a group of Mark IVs (most probably Höflinger's). The only vehicles driving directly Route Nationale were two assault guns.

This indicates that Höflinger's tank was knocked out west of the Route Nationale (in an open field). There was no need for the Canadians to remove the wreck as it wasn't blocking the way.

It is clear that Höflinger didn't use "213" on 8th August. The tank was damaged, towed to a safe place and abandoned after it turned out that it couldn't have been repaired (just like Schneider says). This happened before 8th August.

"Tigers in Combat" says that on 24th June two Tigers were abandoned as they couldn't have been repaired. The same happened on 7th July.

Probably "213" was one of them. This would explain why there is only one photo of that tank (at least this is the only one I know). The tank was destroyed quite early.

I've focused on the Tiger of 2nd Comapny knocked out in La bu sur Rouvres.



As we can't see that battalion's symbol on the right hand I would assume that it is an original 2nd Company vehicle (not a repainted vehicle of the 1st Company).

I've exluded all the Tigers whose wrecks were identified or those that have different features: 204, 211, 212, 213, 214, 221, 223, 231.

I've excluded also 232 as it appears to me that one of the hatches is slightly different.

What is left are:

205, 222, 224, 233, 234.

I haven't seen any photographs of 224, 233 and 234.

But it appears to me that "222" has similar Zimmerit.

[Cyprek]

I've got a funny feeling that the sight holes differ. To me the wreck has bigger and in a slightly different place.

Of course it might be the question of zoom that I made in the Photoshop but the other details appear to be of the same size.

[101yann]

Cyprek,

This photo above was taken in 1947 near St-Aignan de Cramesnil in 1947 by Major Peter Brassey ((B Sqdn / 1NY) as published in ATB Mag; Issue 48.
It is doubtful - although not impossible - that it shows a Tiger lost at Bu sur Rouvres for a number of reasons :
- Bu is located several Kms south east of St-Sylvain and thus not in the close proximity of St-Aignan.
- H. Debusmann, a 2 Kp./SS101 veteran, had the opportunity to visit the area shortly after the war as a POW and did spot a 2.Kp Tiger about 1.5 Km north of the 4 KO'd Tigers (Wittmann's group);
- According to locals in St-Aignan, a Tiger was abandoned near Point 117 (west of st-Aignan and some distance north of the 4 KO'd Tigers of Aug.8).

The Tiger above is very possibly a 2.Kp Tiger, although one could also argue it could be an ex-1.Kp Tiger renumbered as a 2.Kp or 3.Kp vehicle.
When it left the Front on July 11, the 1.Kp is said to have handed over its last 2 Tigers to BOTH the 2.Kp and 3.Kp.(it is not known how many Tigers these two Kompanien received respectively).
The "Potigny" Tiger discussed before, and as you have demonstrated yourself, is clearly one such vehicle (an ex-1.Kp renumbered as a 2.Kp Tiger - AKA 211).

Of special note, the Tiger by the side of a road in Brassey's photo has a rather RARE combination of features :
it has a binocular sight (2 holes) + a large muzzle brake + ...a 40mm roof !!

Within the 2.Kp, the photographic coverage shows that most Tigers had a combination of small MB with a monocular sight and 40 mm turret roof (205, 204, 211 etc...), while a few had the large MB with the binocular sight and 25 mm turret roof (like 232).
As the 40mm roof was introduced at about the same time as the small MB/monocular sight, then the above combinations make sense.

So the Tiger in Brassey's photo is indeed quite an unusual beast in that it should have had a 25mm turret roof since it has a large MB and a binocular sight, yet it has a 40mm turret roof !
One can only surmise it is one of those crossovers that happened on the Production line (FILO thing).
The only documented 2.Kp Tiger that had such 3 combined external features is...222 (as seen in a few shots taken at VB on June 14.)
So 222 is a very likely candidate...but JUST that : a candidate.

Incidentally, another Tiger with such 3 features is the renumbered 211 (ex-1.Kp vehicle). So at least we know there were 2 such Tigers in SS101.

Now if Brassey is correct in saying that this "unusual" Tiger was situated near St-Aignan, then it may have been KO'd on Aug. 8 after Wittmann's Tigers, when Rabe led a counter-attack east of St-Aignan later in the day with a total of 3 Tigers, the ones not lost with Wittmann.
At the time (afternoon/Aug. 8), the remaining Tigers of 2.Kp were still leaving/in transit from the Grimbosq Forest so couldn't have participated in this counter-attack anyway.

And if Brassey's Tiger was indeed located near Point 117, then it is either :

- an ex-1.Kp Tiger renumbered as a 3.Kp vehicle.
- a 2.Kp Tiger attached to the Stab (Stab of SS101 said to have been boosted to 5 Tigers sometime in July)

What worries me about it being the Tiger Debusmann inspected as a POW is that he said that the 2.Kp Tiger he saw was intact and clearly Brassey's Tiger has suffered extensive damage !

Futhermore, Point 117 is located a short distance east of the N158 but west of St-Aignan so how it ended up there - well into enemy lines - is quite puzzling.

Another possibility is that if Brassey's Tiger really shows the Tiger that was at Point 117, then it could be that it was not lost there originally.
I have heard from locals that the Tiger at Point 117 had been towed away there by the Allies sometime after the battle but I have no further details.
If correct, I guess there's still a possibility that this Tiger was in fact Höfflinger's tank lost on Aug. 8 at the time of Wittmann's demise, and that it was moved later some distance to the North for some reason...?

Certainly Höfflinger's Tiger would have been KO'd farther south initially, as part of Wittmann's group. According to his own account, he and his crew had to bail out of their Tiger within seconds/minutes after Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed.
At that time, Wittmann was to his RIGHT (original German account states that he turned his head to the RIGHT, not to the LEFT as incorrectly quoted in Brian Reid's book) so Höfflinger's Tiger must have been KO'd a short distance WEST of Wittmann's Tiger and at about the same level.
This places Höfflingers' Tiger on the N158 road itself, as when you look at the aerial photo taken on Aug.9, it is quite clear that he could not have been farther West since there was a wall surrounding a castle and too many buildings/houses on that western portion of the N158.
I can only conclude that the Tiger that was on the road as mentioned by Radley-Walters in his book most likely refers to Höfflinger's Tiger.

As to which Tiger Höfflinger had at the time, it is possible that he was still operating in HIS own designated mount, that is 213. Höfflinger was no longer part of the 2.Kp on Aug. 8, but had been appointed to the Stab by Wittmann himself in July so he may well have retained his original Tiger.
Alas, there's no confirmed shot of 213 to this day.

Besides 007, we have every reason to conclude that a second Command Tiger was involved (and lost) on Aug.8 :

- Höfflinger was indeed ordered by Wittmann to fetch 2 such vehicles before the attack. While Wittmann used HIS own 007 (as the Kommandeur, 007 was then is designated mount and contrary to popular belied and widespread myths, he never "borrowed" 007...it was HIS Tiger !!), this doesn't mean Höfflinger used the other Command Tiger.

- Helmut Dollinger, the Bttn Signal Officer was also involved in the attack and from the account of his crew (Sturmann Bahlo in particular), he was using a Command Tiger for this attack. Additionally, Dollinger's official mount as SO was 009.

- 2 photos of one of the KO'd Tigers with Wittmann on Aug. 8 (one is published in Didier Lodieu's book " La Massue") seem to show that one of the KO'd Tigers besides 007 and 314 was a Command Tiger and, being a Late type (with the emblem painted on the front LHS and no Rhomboid sign on the front RHS), must be...009 by default. (008 had to be a Mid).
When looking closely at those 2 photos, it also seems that this Tiger was KO'd near a country lane and in the aerial photo, the only wreck that fits with this is the SECOND northernmost Tiger.
So this would mean that Dollinger's 009 was not in the lead position when KO'd.

I have studied the photo showing a 2.Kp Tiger KO'd that you think is 213 but in as much as I like to keep an open mind, I still do not see any concrete evidence it is 213.
This Tiger is such in a sorry state it is impossible for me to discern clear traces of definite numbers, if at all...Sorry !
In fact, I happen to believe that the location of the Unit emblem/traces of camo on front plate are rather similar to...the original 211 !

Rgds
Yann