Milice Francaise

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
duVair
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Location: Uriage

Post by duVair » 20 Oct 2005 18:24

Bonjour Daniel
I can't give you the results of a DNA test but I don't believe it likely that an Internaute or hacker would have my birth certificate not a picture of the burial site of my father at Bernsgrün (Vogtland) which I intend to transmit with this message. I managed to obtain the permission of the Lutheran church authorities to place this burial stone at the place where 8 of the massacred refugees were buried, subsequent to the obtention of all the documentation imaginable from German, Church records, and burial records and other authorities.

American? Absolutely not. All of his adult life my father was a French citizen. I should also add that one had to be a French citizen to be an officer in the French Army (other than the Foreign Legion maybe). His dislike for American was particularly acute when Roosevelt and Stalin became allies. Choose your devil. My father chose Pétain and his country.

Pierre Louis had no particular animosity with Darnand although their differed in their convictions in major ways. Darnand had long ago left Maurras and l'Action française, my father represented the Count of Paris. At the time of the SOL the doctrine he taught was entirely Révolution nationale and Pétainiste. His first major concern as to Darnand was when the latter gave a speech at Lyon in 1942 in which the mention of a certain collaboration with the occupant bothered many people in the SOL. He stayed on for reasons of anti-parliamentarianism (Don't let that III Republic come back to power) and fear of a communist takeover in France at the end of the war. He was faithful to Pétain and did not like Laval (as was the case with Pétain as you know). When certain individuals in the Secretariat began to oppose what my father's doctrine, a plot to remove him developed among those closest to Darnand inspired by Pierre Cance and pursued by Gombert who had other previous conflicts with du Vair. Cance created the term "duVairisme" accusing my father of wanting to take Darnand's place. When Darnand, very protective of his authority, was told "The men trained by du Vair at Uriage are HIS soldiers, not yours. They would lay down their life for him."... and exageration, to be sure... but that was all Darnand had to hear. He offered my father - who had become extremely well known in the departments and regions and admired in Milice families -- another portfolio. He refused. Darnand ordered him to engage himself in the Sturmbrigade. Obviously, he refused. We were then pursued by Darnand but protected by Milice chiefs in horror of the events of July 24-25, 1943 at Uriage. This is too brief to really give an idea, for these events evolved in a very complicated way. Six months later, Darnand admitted to Abel Bonnard that the treatment afforded my father was more than unjust, it was a mistake. In fact quite a number of people left Uriage with my father and many in the regions left the Milice. But as I always say, things were not black and white and it takes years of studies (and a suspicious nature as to post-war propaganda) to get even a moderate understanding of the men and the events.
Voilà.
La Ney du Vair

duVair
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Location: Uriage

Post by duVair » 20 Oct 2005 18:26

The final resting place of Pierre Louis de La Ney du Vair is Bernsgrün (Vogtland)
Last edited by duVair on 23 Oct 2005 20:17, edited 1 time in total.

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lavella
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Post by lavella » 20 Oct 2005 20:41

[quote="duVair"]........, my father represented the Count of Paris.

Bonsoir,
Et que pensez vous de la tentative de putsch du comte de Paris en decembre 42 à Alger .
Il se proposait de prendre le pouvoir apres l'assassinat de Darlan (abattu par un de ses partisans -F.Bonnier de la Chapelle-lui meme ignominieusement executé sur ordre de Giraud)Il beneficiait d'appuis trés eclectiques des monarchistes aux gaullistes en passant par le president de la communauté juive d' Alger .....................................
Aprés l'echec de sa tentative , le Comte ,definitivement brulé , se fera oublier dans sa proprieté marocaineà Larache



Translation
What do you think about the attempt of putsch by le Comte de Paris in Algiers , December 42?
He wanted to be in charge of the power after Darlan's murder (shot by the young royalist
F.Bonnier de la Chapelle ,himself ignominiously executed by order of Giraud )
Le comte de Paris had many eclectic supporters from monarchists to gaullists and even the chief of jewish community of Algiers
After his aborted attempt, the count ,definitively blown, retired in his estate ,at Larache,Morocco

Sources(among many others) L'Echiquier d'Alger Claude Paillat

duVair
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Post by duVair » 21 Oct 2005 00:38

No, the Count of Paris was not behing the youngster Bonnier de la Chapelle. It is far more credible that it was the British SOE, (Special Operation Executive) who wanted Darlan (favorite of Roosevelt) killed.
I suggest you read the extremely well documented book:
WALTER, Xavier, Un roi pour la France, Henri comte de Paris, F. X. de Guibert, Laballery, Paris, juin, 2002
and the book of
CHANTERAC A, de. L'assassinat de Darlan, Perrin, 1995 as it relates to the role of the SOE.

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Daniel Laurent
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Post by Daniel Laurent » 22 Oct 2005 06:09

duVair wrote:Bonjour Daniel
Voilà.
La Ney du Vair
Bonjour Pierre,
Clair et net, as we say in French (Neat and clear)
Many thanks.
Would you authorize me to publish those documents in another forum, a one in French were we have a little polemic about your father in a thread called...... "Waffen SS Américains" :x
I will obviously quote my source.
And probably come back here with another question!
Salutations distinguées
Daniel

duVair
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Location: Uriage

Post by duVair » 22 Oct 2005 17:35

Bonjour Daniel,
Pour la photographie de la pierre tombale de mon père, je n'ai aucun problème. Par contre vous comprendrez que la présence de mon acte de naissance sur un forum en français, cela ne ferais pas plaisir. Il y a-t-il moyen pour vous de le communiquer hors forum à un particulier que aurait voulu voir une preuve (par courriel (email) par exemple)?
Merci d'avoir eu la gentilesse de me poser la question.
La Ney du Vair
ENGLISH
Good Morning Daniel
As to the photo of my faher's burial stone, I have no problem. However you will understand that the presence of my birth certificat on a forum in French would not please me. Is there a way in which you can communicate this outside the forum to an individual who would want proof (by email for example)?
Thanks for you kindness in asking the question.
La Ney du Vair

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Daniel Laurent
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Post by Daniel Laurent » 23 Oct 2005 05:23

duVair wrote:Good Morning Daniel
As to the photo of my faher's burial stone, I have no problem. However you will understand that the presence of my birth certificat on a forum in French would not please me. Is there a way in which you can communicate this outside the forum to an individual who would want proof (by email for example)?
Bonjour Pierre,
No, I will not send it to anybody, you never know what they will do with it. I will quote it, mention that I have it, and if they do not want to believe me, well they can (censored)

If you do not want this document to appear on a French Site, I would recommend you to *quickly* remove it from this forum. Click on the "Edit" functiun of the related post and remove the attachments. Sorry to repeat: Quickly, it's maybe already too late.
Thanks for you kindness in asking the question.
La Ney du Vair

Well, trying to do a bit of historical research requires a minimum of ethic, Pierre.
So one shall always quote his sources and, when the sources are private, seek the permission before.
Trying to act "as if" I was a pro :lol:
Salutations distinguées
Daniel

duVair
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Post by duVair » 23 Oct 2005 15:47

Bonjour Daniel
I have never before been on a forum, so am a novice. Can you please give me some more precise instructions on how to remove my birth certificate from the forum?
Je n'arrive pas à supprimer cette image. Merci.
Pierre

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Daniel Laurent
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Post by Daniel Laurent » 23 Oct 2005 16:07

duVair wrote:Bonjour Daniel
I have never before been on a forum, so am a novice. Can you please give me some more precise instructions on how to remove my birth certificate from the forum?
Je n'arrive pas à supprimer cette image. Merci.
Pierre
Sorry, ladies and gentlemen, in French to help Mr. du Vair:
1 - Retournez dans le poste ou se trouve l'image en question
2 - En haut a droite, cliquez sur "edit"
3 - De retour dans le message d'origine, eliminez = delete l'attachement en question.

Note to the moderator: Could you please do that "cleansing" for Mr. du Vair?
In spite of his original "holy anger", he came back with very interesting information.
And I still have few more questions to ask him....
Maybe he deserves a bit more of "constructive moderation" :lol:
Thanks in advance

Salutations distinguées
Daniel

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Daniel Laurent
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Post by Daniel Laurent » 24 Oct 2005 15:52

Now that this thread has been cleaned up of the photos M. du Vair would prefer not to see published everywhere, I posted my synopsis of the story in a French forum.
For those who can read the language of Monsieur de la Fayette:
http://test01163.sivit.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6894
Regards
Daniel

duVair
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Post by duVair » 24 Oct 2005 20:04

Daniel
Don't be offended if I correct a couple of minor errors as to your text on the French forum. Here goes:
My father was not a member of the Italian Armistice commission. He was simply in charge of the group of interpreters to that commission. Also, it was not he alone who created the Annecy (Haute-Savoie) unit of the SOL. It was done with Gaston Jacquemin (assassinated) who immediately obtained had the prime responsability. La Ney du Vair had talked Jacquemin into leaving the Army of the Armistice with him and join the Légion Française des Combattants. I might add that "chez Zehlendorf" is incorrect in that Zehlendorf is a section of Berlin, the home of the Kurt Eggers war correspondents unit. And finally, my father was killed at 5PM on the afternoon of April 11, (de day following the destruction of Plauen by the British on the night of April 10). The American flew in daytime, often to further terrorize an already terrorized civilian population, as was the case of Plauen. The aviators saw our train in the Mehltheuer station and -- for reasons never explained -- the conductor took the train to the "heights" off the primary track between Mehltheuer and Bernsgrün where he also was killed, having chosen an ideal site for the American attack. Mehltheuer is in the German land called Vogtland whereas Bernsgrün is in the German land called Thuringen (even though they are only a couple of miles apart.)
Your report is fundamentally correct. But as you can see, I am a "nut" for precision. I see that you read English well enough that I need not write to you in our native language -- French (since this is an English-language forum).
Bien amicalement,
La Ney du Vair

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Daniel Laurent
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Post by Daniel Laurent » 25 Oct 2005 02:22

duVair wrote:Daniel
Don't be offended if I correct a couple of minor errors as to your text on the French forum. Bien amicalement,
La Ney du Vair
Offended?
I informed you about that French post with the *very precise* purpose of getting back from you any amnendment or corrections needed.
And I got them
And I will edit my post accordingly
And everything is all right
:D
Many thanks for your information
Bien amicalement
Daniel

walterkaschner
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Post by walterkaschner » 30 Oct 2005 03:47

For those like Durand who are seeking publications in English treating of the Milice, I have just finished reading John Hellman's The Knight-Monks of Vichy France: Uriage, 1940-45 (McGill-Queen's University Press, 2d ed. paperback 1997), which treats briefly but in some detail of the school at the Chateau Bayard at Uriage after its take-over by the Milice in February 1943 with Pierre Louis de la Ney [there spelled Noüe] du Vair at its head. If our own member M. du Vair has read the book I would be greatly interested in his views.

The main thrust of the book deals with the group of fervent young Catholics (the "Knight-Monks") involved as instructorsa or students in the Vichy leadership school founded by the French cavalry (tank) captain Pierre Dunoyer de Sagonzac, which was moved to the Chateau in November, 1940 and was known as the École National des Cadres de Jeunesse d'Uriage (The National School of Youth Leaders at Uriage). This school, which was initially ultra Pétainiste and devoted to the ideal of a romantic, idealistic, ultra-montane, authoritarian and Catholic New National Order, became increasingly anti-German and was disolved by order of Laval at the end of December, 1942, shortly after the German occupation of the formerly Unoccupied Zone. Many of its students thereafter joined and became active members of the Gaullist sections of the Résistance, and subsequently became prominent in post-war France. The author is a Professor of History at McGill, and to my mind at least throws around the word "Fascist" much too carelessly, but the book is a good read and illuminates one of the many complex underlying currents of French thought and belief that led to the almost universal support of Pétain in Metropolitan France in Vichy's early years and the mounting opposition as its vestiges of independence disappeared and its true nature became increasingly apparent. Apart from its treatment of Uriage during the Milice's tenure there, the book's main subject is IMHO of equally lively interest.

Regards, Kaschner

duVair
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Location: Uriage

Post by duVair » 30 Oct 2005 19:20

In answer to Kaschner, I do not have this book in my library. I did however find a letter in my computer which I forward for your perusal
du Vair

TRANSLATION OF ORIGINAL LETTER WHICH WAS IN FRENCH
October 17, 2002
My dear Philippe,

In answer to your question, there is only one book on Uriage in the Montreal universities. It is the one you can find at McGill University, at the address which you indicated. The author is Hellman.

This author, Hellman, treats the subject of l’École des Cadres of Dunoyer de Ségonzac. We agree you and me, that this school was closed by Laval in December, 1942, because it was too favourable to Pétain and we remember that Pétain had fired Laval who was reinstated by the Germans. And there was no love lost between the two. But this is not the representation made by Hellman, who falsifies the truth.

The author makes fun of Ségonzac, of Beuve-Méry and of the idea of a “Révolution Nationale” without mention of the Maréchal, considered to be a traitor and a tyrant. This is absolutely false. In his second edition, he speaks of “remembrances which wound”, such as Mitterrand, Moulin, Touvier and the half-lie of the Resistance. One cannot find the truth on these men, or on anything else. Neither on my father who, according to this author, would have marched on Vichy with his 68 men, to remove Laval, Darnand, and the camouflaged Republicans. It is impossible to write more falsely as you well know. Interestingly, he did mention my father’s use of our ancestral (and correct) name de la Nouë du Vair, the word “Ney” being an American error made at birth.

I had difficulty finishing the reading of this awful book because of its falsifications. It is shocking – it is a book which has made me appreciate how the collective memories of English-speaking generations who follow us are so horribly misinformed.

I have not yet found any book by English-speaking authors which are written honorably, honestly, subsequent to profound research, and with an understanding of a France inevitably submitted to an armistice with Germany following the debacle of 1940.

Cordially,
Pierre du Vair

THE ORIGINAL LETTER IN FRENCH


Le 17 octobre, 2002
Mon cher Philippe,

Pour répondre à votre question, il n’y a qu’un seul livre qui est axé sur Uriage dans les universités montréalaises. C’est celui ci, que l’on retrouve à l’Université McGILL, à l’adresse que vous m’aviez indiquée. L’auteur est Hellman.

Cet auteur, Hellman, traite le sujet de l’École des cadres de Dunoyer de Ségonzac. On est d’accord que cette école était trop Pétainiste pour Pierre Laval qui l’a fermé, décembre, 1942, et on se souvient que Pétain avait licencié Laval, remis au pouvoir pas l’Allemagne. Mais ce n’est pas la représentation que fait Hellman qui fausse la vérité.

L’auteur se moque beaucoup de Ségonzac, de Beuve-Méry et de l’idée de « Révolution Nationale » sans parler du Maréchal, considéré comme étant un traître et un tyran. Ce qui est tout a fait faux. Dans sa deuxième édition il parle de « souvenirs qui blessent », soit Mitterrand, Moulin, Touvier et le demi-mensonge de la Résistance. On ne trouve pas la vérité sur ces hommes ni sur quoi que ce soit. Ni sur mon père qui, d’après cet auteur, aurait voulu faire marche sur Vichy avec ses 68 stagiaires, faire tomber Laval, Darnand et les Républicains camouflés. On ne peut écrire plus faux, vous le savez bien. C’est intéressant le fait qu’il mentionne l’utilisation par mon père de notre nom ancestral de la Nouë du Vair, le mot “Ney” étant dû à un carence américaine à sa naissance.

J’ai eu de la difficulté à terminer ce terrible livre tellement il fausse l’histoire. C’est choquant – c’est un livre qui m’avait fait apprécier comment la mémoire collective des générations anglophones qui nous suivent devient si horriblement trompée.

Je n’ai pas encore trouvé de livres par des auteurs anglophones qui écrivent honorablement, honnêtement, suite à des recherches approfondies et avec une compréhension de la `France soumise à une inévitable armistice avec l’Allemagne suite à la débâcle de 1940.

Bien cordialement,


Pierre du Vair


Hellman, John, 1940- The knight-monks of Vichy France : Uriage, 1940-1945 /


DC397 H44 1997 [Regular Loan] Humanities & Social Sciences McLennan Bldg
Humanities-&-Social-Sciences( 1/ 0)
1997

Contents Introduction: French Catholic Intellectuals and the Ideological Origins of the Vichy Regime -- 1. Beginnings -- 2. Beuve-Mery, the Research Department, and the Knightly Order -- 3. The Uriage Experience -- 4. Uriage Influence: Jeunesse ... France, Marche, and the Regional Schools -- 5. The Uriage Network, 1941: the Equipe Nationale, Economie et Humanisme, the Scouts and Compagnons -- 6. The Struggle for Youth -- 7. Uriage under Attack (March 1942-January 1943) -- 8. Exile from the Castle, the Order, and the Flying Squads -- 9. De Gaulle, the Network, and the Liberation -- Epilogue to the Second Edition: Wounding Memories: Mitterrand, Moulin, Touvier, and the Divine Half-Lie of Resistance.

duVair
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Location: Uriage

Re: Plans to publish a book in English

Post by duVair » 03 Sep 2010 20:15

Durand wrote:Hallo duVair,

I would very much like to read the book on your father. Are there any plans to publish an English language edition?

Best Regards,

Durand
Yes, my book, a biography, in English, will be published circa Dec-Jan in Montreal. Title (if they don't insist on changing it, sometimes they're terrible) will be : The Yearning.
Pierre Henri du Vair

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