The Indian Volunteers in the German Army and Waffen-SS

[Marcus]

Several posts discussing allegations of rapes were moved to the war crimes section: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=227602

[antwony]

Several posts discussing allegations of rapes were moved to the war crimes section: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=227602

Sorry about that, I probably could have worded my response better. I had included a description of the Indian's soldier "military" activities in my reply (link above) which referred to their war crimes, which was basically the sum of their combat experiences.

[Panzermahn]

The Sikh soldier at the top is not wearing the SS runes.He is wearing the Leaping Tiger collar tab.I have never seen an Indian legionary wear SS runes.

There is a special Indian Police Group under the command of the SD that consisted of selected Indian personnel of the Legion Azad Hind that served as security intelligence unit of the legion. There is a picture of SS-Oberscharfuehrer Gora Chand Dey (from Calcutta, India) wearing the SS runes but it is a SD uniform rather than a Waffen SS one. Strangely even Gora Chand Dey's rank was SS-Oberscharfuhrer rather than Waffen-Oberscharfuehrer despite there the regulation for non-Germans was to have the prefix Waffen on their SS ranks but ostensibly Gora Chand Dey was in the police SD unit rather than Waffen SS.

Bamber & Neevan's book For Free India (2010, Oskam Neevan publishers) is the most definitive book on the Indian legion in English and the info above about the Indian SD unit was from it.

but the hapless Legionnaires in Europe are a largely less known and neglected lot

This is incorrect. In fact the British were aware of the formation of the Battaglione Azad Hindustan (the Italian precursor to German Legion Azad Hind) as well as the formation of the Indian Legion of the Wehrmacht thanks to the Ultra source.

Captain Gurbachan Singh Mangat (the Sikh legionnaire who hold the Indian Legion banner during its inauguration ceremony by Netaji Bose) served as India's ambassador to Austria in the 1960s

I am by no means the absolute expert on the issue but I have, like you, yet to see any evidence of any indians wearing SS tabs on their collar tabs

Again, there are pictures of Indians wearing the SS runes but in SD uniform as well as the SS sports training shirt in Bamber & Neevan's book For Free India. There is a picture of Indian legionnaire captured in the aftermath of the Battle of Berlin wearing the SS feldmuetze cap with SS eagle.

There are also pictures of German personnel of the Indian legion wearing SS uniforms with the Legion Azad Hind armshield in the same book.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

The Sikh soldier at the top is not wearing the SS runes.He is wearing the Leaping Tiger collar tab.I have never seen an Indian legionary wear SS runes.

There is a special Indian Police Group under the command of the SD that consisted of selected Indian personnel of the Legion Azad Hind that served as security intelligence unit of the legion. There is a picture of SS-Oberscharführer Gora Chand Dey (from Calcutta, India) wearing the SS runes but it is a SD uniform rather than a Waffen-SS one. Strangely even Gora Chand Dey's rank was SS-Oberscharfuhrer rather than Waffen-Oberscharfuehrer despite there the regulation for non-Germans was to have the prefix Waffen on their SS ranks but ostensibly Gora Chand Dey was in the police SD unit rather than Waffen-SS.

Bamber & Neevan's book For Free India (2010, Oskam Neevan publishers) is the most definitive book on the Indian legion in English and the info above about the Indian SD unit was from it.

but the hapless Legionnaires in Europe are a largely less known and neglected lot

This is incorrect. In fact the British were aware of the formation of the Battaglione Azad Hindustan (the Italian precursor to German Legion Azad Hind) as well as the formation of the Indian Legion of the Wehrmacht thanks to the Ultra source.

Captain Gurbachan Singh Mangat (the Sikh legionnaire who hold the Indian Legion banner during its inauguration ceremony by Netaji Bose) served as India's ambassador to Austria in the 1960s

I am by no means the absolute expert on the issue but I have, like you, yet to see any evidence of any indians wearing SS tabs on their collar tabs

Again, there are pictures of Indians wearing the SS runes but in SD uniform as well as the SS sports training shirt in Bamber & Neevan's book For Free India. There is a picture of Indian legionnaire captured in the aftermath of the Battle of Berlin wearing the SS-Feldmütze cap with SS eagle.

There are also pictures of German personnel of the Indian legion wearing SS uniforms with the Legion Azad Hind armshield in the same book.

Hi Panzermahn..

Thanks a lot for the excellent reference. I was unaware of this SD bit. I will look up Legions-Oberscharführer Gora dey. I will see if there is anything available in Calcutta on him. The other day I went to the Netaji Research Bureau and Museum (after an entire Goddamned lifetime) and fished around for stuff. There are some good collections on the SE Asia INA. Just the usual stuff on the Indian Legion in Europe though !

However I don't agree on this part :

" .. This is incorrect. In fact the British were aware of the formation of the Battaglione Azad Hindustan (the Italian precursor to German Legion Azad Hind) as well as the formation of the Indian Legion of the Wehrmacht thanks to the Ultra source.

Captain Gurbachan Singh Mangat (the Sikh legionnaire who hold the Indian Legion banner during its inauguration ceremony by Netaji Bose) served as India's ambassador to Austria in the 1960s.."

The Germans / Italians (the hosts) being aware is not the same as getting its due recognition in public awareness. The discourse and narrative in India on Netaji's wartime exploits, are very largely focused on the SE Asian / South Asian part. Perhaps since there was much more "action" this side and the INA was involved in very significant campaigns (Imphal / Kohima on Indian soil) and took huge losses in battle as well as during the messed up retreat. And of course it was much nearer home.

One or two INA / Legion personalities were given token sops by the Indian Govt., by way of ministries and overseas postings. But that was about all. The huge groundswell of Netaji's popularity among the masses and the romance around the INA didn't bring home any material benefits for the officers and men by and large.

The Communists shunned them of course (till decades later)...Captain Lakshmi Swaminathan, CO, Rani Jhansi regiment became prominent in Leftist politics herself in Kanpur (her daughter, Suhasini Ali, became a CPM Member of Parliament once). Lakshmi Swaminathan(later Sehgal, post marriage with Col. Prem Sehgal, INA) was even sponsored for the Presidential race as the Left's candidate at the fag end of her life.

The mainline Congress party of Gandhi / Nehru / Patel shunned Netaji since he became the Party President, a 2nd time, against Gandhi's wishes. The Left-Liberal Nehru took umbrage at Netaji's Axis ties ..moreover his personal political ambitions were at risk if Netaji returned.

Nehru's pro left leanings and statesman like image wouldn't countenance any perceived softness towards the Indian Legion's memories in Europe ..." in the lair of the Fascist beast" so to say ( Soviet lingo)!

Cheers
Sandeep

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi hoot72...

Your references and comments about the Indian legion in Holland can be found in the Video linked in this post :
viewtopic.php?p=2012644#p2012644


Apart from Holland..a lot of things you are saying are validated here.

Cheers
Sandeep

[hoot72]

Hi hoot72...

Your references and comments about the Indian legion in Holland can be found in the Video linked in this post :
viewtopic.php?p=2012644#p2012644


Apart from Holland..a lot of things you are saying are validated here.

Cheers
Sandeep

Thank you for confirming Sandeep. I appreciate your contribution and confirmation.

It is good to get feedback from someone who has something to contribute.

I appreciate it.

[Panzermahn]

HI Sandeep,

Apologies I am mistaken. It was SD blank collar patch, not SS.

/viewtopic.php?t=78079&start=105

The Germans / Italians (the hosts) being aware is not the same as getting its due recognition in public awareness. The discourse and narrative in India on Netaji's wartime exploits, are very largely focused on the SE Asian / South Asian part. Perhaps since there was much more "action" this side and the INA was involved in very significant campaigns (Imphal / Kohima on Indian soil) and took huge losses in battle as well as during the messed up retreat. And of course it was much nearer home.

You are right based on this perspective though. I do agree that the Indian legionnaires of the Legion Azad Hind was mostly forgotten even back in India.

By the way, do you know any memoirs by Indian legion personnel on the Legion Azad Hind? I am aware of the book The Tiger strikes by Captain Gurbachan Singh Mangat but it seems to be very very rare and the only one I know in English by an Indian legionnaire

[hoot72]

I am speaking from the perspective of someone who went to a Jesuit university with a large spanish student population and who also listened to their historical beliefs for a number of years on how they created a modern society in many latin american countries

And I am speaking from the perspective of someone who studied in Spain and who also listened and read for a number of years from Spanish authors about both the pros and cons of Spanish colonial rule. By the way, is there any Indian author that has published a story of the Indian Legion that shows it as somewhat-less-than-superbly-brilliant?

I think you, if you are interested in the Indian Legion should read Martin Bamber's FOR FREE INDIA and Hartog's account of the Indian Legion first before diving into any other books. These 2 books are very very good reading and will set you up nicely for all that anti british commentary I assume you refer to with the "..somewhat-less-than-superbly-brilliant" indian authors.

Very best of luck with your research.

Thank you.

[WAR LORD]

Some pictures of Indians killed in France

[michael mills]

If they really volunteered to fight for the Germans due to a nationalistic desire to oppose their colonial masters, then one must wonder why they had volunteered previously to fight for their colonial masters.

The Second World War was not the first time Indian soldiers had turned against their British masters.

Have you never heard of the Indian Mutiny of 1857?

[Ironmachine]

The Second World War was not the first time Indian soldiers had turned against their British masters.
Have you never heard of the Indian Mutiny of 1857?

Yes, I have. Still doesn't prove that all those Indian volunteers joined the German Army due to a "nationalist motivation to fight their colonial master" (nor that all of them were really volunteers).

[hoot72]

Hi Guys,

Surely the problem was that by the time they might have got into combat the war situation had turned against the Axis and the INA was already destined for defeat. As a result, they were already demoralized and mostly disintegrated before entering combat.

As far as I can see, only 1st INA Division entered action of its own volition in Burma in mid 1944 and most of its casualties were a result of the breakdown of the Japanese supply system, not battle. All other INA units in east and west were overrun and/or disintegrated without making any measurable combat impact.

Given how well so many Indian formations fought in the Indian Army, there is no doubt that Indian troops could fight as well as anybody else. (For example, 5th Indian Division took over five times its own numbers of Germans and Italians prisoner in WWII).

Had the strategic circumstances been more favourable, there is little doubt that the INA could have fought determinedly for what was a widely popular cause. However, they weren't and, for the most part, it didn't.

One of the frustrations of ex-British colonies trying to build their national myths is that the British almost always scarpered before they could be thrown out. This leaves most of the ex-British colonies with no national liberation war epic. The INA might have provided such an epic, but circumstances were wrong.

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi Sid,

Some thoughts to ponder. Well written and discussed above.

The indian legion did face french and american units in south of france (this is a fact) and were on the retreat there after with the German's all the way across the Rhine.

1-2 individuals have pointed out that the indian soldiers were a) essentially useless b) committed atrocities c) had no involvement in any way in any combat action in France. All 3 points are not correct and if these 1-2 individuals in question were to actually spend some time researching and reading material already in existence, they will realize why they are wrong.

The whole point of forming the legion with captured POW's in North Africa was to eventually kick the British out of India and for India to achieve independence. This is what most indian's wanted after centuries of British rule and hundreds of thousands of indian soldiers sent to their death's en-masse on the western front in WW1 and at Gallipolli as well as in-competant leadership in the fall of Malaya and Singapore and Borneo relatively so easily to the Japanese even though the Japanese were outnumbered in troop numbers.

I would also suggest the thoughts of the INA soldiers recruited in Singapore had a vastly different experience compared to their brothers who were sent to Germany, then Holland and then France on many things which many folks who are not indian will never understand.

Longing to go home, to be closer to home and to be a part of achieving freedom and for a worthy cause. Not sitting in Europe, freezing in the european weather and not being able to write home or hear from loved one's for 3-4 years.

A lot of indian families who sent their youth to fight in WW1 and WW2 lost son's who never came home and it was a massive massive burden, especially after WW1 as there were simply not enough youth and a next generation to work the fields and to support wives, children, aging parents and to also tend to problems families face when they have a bad year of crops (locust/floods`/drought) and there is no income being sent home and or nobody to go out to look for income or buy medicines for the family.

Again, some of the comments made by 1-2 individuals on here were disgusting to say the least but I will put it down to that lack of understanding and compassion as to why, what and how, and not also being asian enough to realize a son's obligations to his parents as they age and to look after them in good and bad health.

Everything it seems is about how professional german and other foreign legion soldiers are/were and how bad the indian's were, without putting any effort into factual reading and research.

[Ironmachine]

The whole point of forming the legion with captured POW's in North Africa was to eventually kick the British out of India and for India to achieve independence.

This may well have been the point of (some of) those Indian POWs, but was it the real German objective when forming the unit?

1-2 individuals have pointed out that the indian soldiers were a) essentially useless b) committed atrocities c) had no involvement in any way in any combat action in France. All 3 points are not correct and if these 1-2 individuals in question were to actually spend some time researching and reading material already in existence, they will realize why they are wrong.
[...]
Again, some of the comments made by 1-2 individuals on here were disgusting to say the least [...]

Considering the posters in this thread and our respective contributions, it may be that you are including me in the "1-2 individuals" that supposedly made "disgusting" comments (even though I do not feel alluded to); if that's the case, then you should reread my posts with an open mind (or just with both eyes opened), and you will see that I actually neither said anything about the uselessness, the committed atrocities and/or the involvement in combat of the Indian Legion, nor anything that could be considered "disgusting" about their members (or at least, more disgusting that what you said about their French victims).
However, you should be more careful when talking about disgusting comments because, as worded, your sentence that

[...]I will put it down to [...] not also being asian enough to realize a son's obligations to his parents as they age and to look after them in good and bad health.

is extremely disgusting and has some unpleasant undertones that I prefer to let go, as I will put it down to some uncontrolled emotional response. But in the future don't be so quick to throw a stone, when you may be guilty of the same sin.
Regards.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi hoot,

You write, "This is what most Indian's wanted after centuries of British rule and hundreds of thousands of indian soldiers sent to their death's en-masse on the western front in WW1 and at Gallipolli as well as in-competant leadership in the fall of Malaya and Singapore and Borneo relatively so easily to the Japanese even though the Japanese were outnumbered in troop numbers."

Firstly, there were not hundreds of thousands of Indian troops sent to their deaths. As I understand it, some 64,000 died in WWI and 87,000 in WWII. Amongst these are thousands who died in Turkish and Japanese custody as POWs. Whilst these were grievous losses to the families concerned, they were infinitesimal in a population of some 350 million. Indeed, because the so-called "martial" peoples the British recruited from were only a tiny fraction of the population as a whole, and the British did not rule in that third of India that were "princely states", most of the Indian population was untouched by campaign losses.

Certainly the Japanese were outnumbered in terms of troop numbers in Malaya (by 2:1), but you should also look at the quality and experience of the troops on both sides. In particular reference here, the regular Indian Army units in Malaya had been repeatedly combed out to provide cadres for the massive expansion of the Indian Army at home and in the Middle East.

Whilst I have little doubt that most educated Indians were anxious to see the British gone, (perhaps not least because they would inherit power), I doubt the bulk of the Indian population was much more than indifferent. Certainly hostility to the British does not seem to have inhibited the raising by the British in India of the largest volunteer army the world has ever seen. Indeed, the British Indian Army was around 30-40 times the size of the INA at its peak, and the INA did not recruit all the Indian POWs in Japanese hands. (About 70,000 Indian Army troops were in Malaya in 1941-42, almost all of whom must have been captured. The INA that finally entered action in 1944 contained about 20,000 of these men. The other ±20,000 members were Indians domiciled in South-East Asia.)

The British were dominant across the subcontinent for about 150 years. In that time the Indian population had nearly tripled. Although emotionally Indians were likely to prefer home rule, in practical terms the British presence had clearly not been all bad.

That said, it was clearly time for the British to leave as they had little more to offer that Indians could not.

Cheers,

Sid.

[hoot72]

Hi hoot,

You write, "This is what most Indian's wanted after centuries of British rule and hundreds of thousands of indian soldiers sent to their death's en-masse on the western front in WW1 and at Gallipolli as well as in-competant leadership in the fall of Malaya and Singapore and Borneo relatively so easily to the Japanese even though the Japanese were outnumbered in troop numbers."

Firstly, there were not hundreds of thousands of Indian troops sent to their deaths. As I understand it, some 64,000 died in WWI and 87,000 in WWII. Amongst these are thousands who died in Turkish and Japanese custody as POWs. Whilst these were grievous losses to the families concerned, they were infinitesimal in a population of some 350 million. Indeed, because the so-called "martial" peoples the British recruited from were only a tiny fraction of the population as a whole, and the British did not rule in that third of India that were "princely states", most of the Indian population was untouched by campaign losses.

Certainly the Japanese were outnumbered in terms of troop numbers in Malaya (by 2:1), but you should also look at the quality and experience of the troops on both sides. In particular reference here, the regular Indian Army units in Malaya had been repeatedly combed out to provide cadres for the massive expansion of the Indian Army at home and in the Middle East.

Whilst I have little doubt that most educated Indians were anxious to see the British gone, (perhaps not least because they would inherit power), I doubt the bulk of the Indian population was much more than indifferent. Certainly hostility to the British does not seem to have inhibited the raising by the British in India of the largest volunteer army the world has ever seen. Indeed, the British Indian Army was around 30-40 times the size of the INA at its peak, and the INA did not recruit all the Indian POWs in Japanese hands. (About 70,000 Indian Army troops were in Malaya in 1941-42, almost all of whom must have been captured. The INA that finally entered action in 1944 contained about 20,000 of these men. The other ±20,000 members were Indians domiciled in South-East Asia.)

The British were dominant across the subcontinent for about 150 years. In that time the Indian population had nearly tripled. Although emotionally Indians were likely to prefer home rule, in practical terms the British presence had clearly not been all bad.

That said, it was clearly time for the British to leave as they had little more to offer that Indians could not.

Cheers,

Sid.

Thank you for a well written and well thought out response. You make some very very good and valid points I need to both accept as reality and also accept as being probably true on some accounts.