Two types of Tatar Volga Legion

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ninoo
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Two types of Tatar Volga Legion

Post by ninoo » 02 Feb 2017 15:58

Hi,

Is there anybody who could help me to know why there are terms "Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon" and "Wolga-Tartaren-Bataillon" among Tatar-Volga Legion? Is there possibility that the term pointed different religion among Idel-Ural ethnicities? I mean if "Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon" formed from non-Muslim (Chuvash, Udmurt etc.), while "Wolga-Tartaren-Bataillon" is a term for Muslim unit (Kazan Tatar and Bashkir).

Many thanks in advance

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Dr Eisvogel
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Re: Two types of Tatar Volga Legion

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 03 Feb 2017 00:32

ninoo wrote:Hi,

Is there anybody who could help me to know why there are terms "Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon" and "Wolga-Tartaren-Bataillon" among Tatar-Volga Legion? Is there possibility that the term pointed different religion among Idel-Ural ethnicities? I mean if "Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon" formed from non-Muslim (Chuvash, Udmurt etc.), while "Wolga-Tartaren-Bataillon" is a term for Muslim unit (Kazan Tatar and Bashkir).

Many thanks in advance
Dear ninoo,

it seems that since the names of the two battalions imply different ethnic bases for the two units, one Volga Finns (Mari, Mordvins and Udmurts) the other Volga Tatars, obviously there was a religious difference, since Volga Finns are Orthodox Christians, while Volga Tatars (Bashkirs and Tatars) with the exception of Orthodox Christian Kryashen Tatars are Sunni Muslims.

Chuvashes belong to Turkic language group, so linguisticaly seen they are not Volga Finns, although they are Orthodox Christians.

Is there any proof that "Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon" was actually raised?

These memoirs mention Christian Company of 150 men, consisting of Chuvashes, Mordvins, Udmurts and Maris.
После церемонии в честь принявших присягу устроили обед. Затем состоялась встреча в христианской роте – с чувашами, мордвой, удмуртами и марийцами. В роте было 150 человек.
http://gorod.tomsk.ru/index-1228044196.php

Best regards,
Eisvogel

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Re: Two types of Tatar Volga Legion

Post by ninoo » 03 Feb 2017 03:16

Thank you for your explanation and information Dr. Eisvogel.
While Gilyazov's ‘Legion Idel Ural’ didn't mention existence of "Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon", I found a puzzle info at http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de about the existence of Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon 837 and Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon 838. I remember read in one or some forgotten sources that some non-Muslim volunteers from Idel-Ural Legion didn't like to serve under a Muslim legion and try to join with Russian formations and think that maybe those two Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillons were created to accomodate theirs aspirations. Aside from the Lexicon der Wehrmacht, I didn't found(yet) the existence of "Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon" in any reference about Idel-Ural Legion.

Best regards,
Nino

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Re: Two types of Tatar Volga Legion

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 03 Feb 2017 21:36

Dear Nino,

thank you for the precise answers.
ninoo wrote: While Gilyazov's ‘Legion Idel Ural’ didn't mention existence of "Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon", I found a puzzle info at http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de about the existence of Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon 837 and Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon 838.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... Btl837.htm
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... Btl838.htm

Lexikon der Wehrmacht claims that Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon 837 was formed on April 15th 1943 at Wesola near Warsaw as a part of Nordkakukasisches Legion. In November of 1943 that battalion was sent to vicinity of Bordeaux and it was destroyed in France in 1944.

Lexikon der Wehrmacht claims that Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon 838 was supposedly formed at the end of 1943 in Wesola near Warsaw also as a part of Nordkaukasisches Legion. However, its very existence is questionable according to Lexikon der Wehrmacht.

So, that leaves us with checking Nordkaukasisches Legion history as well as Wesola near Warsaw.

ninoo wrote:I remember read in one or some forgotten sources that some non-Muslim volunteers from Idel-Ural Legion didn't like to serve under a Muslim legion and try to join with Russian formations and think that maybe those two Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillons were created to accomodate theirs aspirations.
Sounds logical to me.
ninoo wrote:Aside from the Lexicon der Wehrmacht, I didn't found(yet) the existence of "Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon" in any reference about Idel-Ural Legion.
Thanks a lot. So, let's focus on Nordkaukasisches Legion.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... derung.htm
Die Nordkaukasische Legion wurde am 5. August 1942 in Radom im Generalgouvernement aufgestellt. Die Legionen waren bodenständige Dienststellen, die ausgestattet mit einem Stammpersonal für die Personalangelegenheiten der nicht-russischen Kriegsgefangenen sorgten und diese in verstärkte Feldbataillone formierten. Diese Feldbataillone wurden dann einzeln an die Front geschickt. Die Legion hatte keine Befehlsgewalt über die einzelnen Feld-Bataillone.
The text says that Legion was just an administrative unit charged with forming field battalions [such as Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon 837 and Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon 838], without command authority over the field battalions once these were formed.

Now, there was Freiwilligen Stamm-Division stationed in France established in Southeastern France on February 1st 1944 and it was responsible for all Ostvölkischen Verbände. It was divided into 5 regiments.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... ammDiv.htm

Its Freiwilligen Stamm-Regiment 2 was reponsible for all Volga Tatars, Armenians and Azerbaijanis. So, in theory Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon 837 could have ended being part of that Regiment.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... ammDiv.htm

Wesola is in fact Wesoła, a town near Warsaw (nowadays integral part of the City of Warsaw), which had Imperial Russian army barracks, which were used by Polish Army.

There is a possibility that Wesola was administratively part of Wehrmacht's Truppenübungsplatz Rembertau/Rembertów.

Best regards,
Eisvogel

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Re: Two types of Tatar Volga Legion

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 03 Feb 2017 22:01

Dr Eisvogel wrote: These memoirs mention Christian Company of 150 men, consisting of Chuvashes, Mordvins, Udmurts and Maris.
После церемонии в честь принявших присягу устроили обед. Затем состоялась встреча в христианской роте – с чувашами, мордвой, удмуртами и марийцами. В роте было 150 человек.
http://gorod.tomsk.ru/index-1228044196.php
Just to add some more information about the author of memoirs quoted.

It is Ivan Skobelev, born in 1915 in the village Nizhniy Kurmey (Нижний Курмей) of the Orenburg Oblast. He was Chuvash by ethnicity and his native village was also settled by Chuvashes.

The village exist nowadays and belongs to Abdulino District.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0 ... 0%BE%D0%BD

Ivan Skobelev was mobilized on June 23rd 1941 into the Soviet Army and he was captured by the Germans around Vitebsk in Belarus. In the POW Camp Skobelev was marked with the letter A meaning "Asiate" in German language, that is Asian. Other letters were R for Russian, U for Ukrainian, B for Belarusian.

He was transferred from Vitebsk to Minsk by foot.

He went through many prisons. He ended up in штатлагер = Shtatlager, I think it should be Stammlager 314 in Saxony. His prisoner number was 154155. In that camp there were also Englishmen, Americans, French and Greeks. He was detained in the national minorities bloc with Armenians, Georgians, Volga nationalities and Central Asians.

He doesn't clearly say how did he volunteer for German military service, but he ended up in Siedlce in Poland in the Tatar company, where beside two Mordvins and him, all the rest were Tatars.

When Islamic mullah called for prayer, he refused to participate, so he was called to the commanding officer, who asked him why doesn't he pray. Skobelev answered that he is a Christian and Chuvash by nationality [по национальности чуваш].
После церемонии в честь принявших присягу устроили обед. Затем состоялась встреча в христианской роте – с чувашами, мордвой, удмуртами и марийцами. В роте было 150 человек. Там я познакомился с Федором Дмитриевичем Блиновым, который потом носил фамилию по своей театральной кличке – Паймук. Он происходил из богатой купеческой семьи. По профессии – экономист, окончил в Москве институт им. Плеханова. Страшный националист! Все носился с идеей создания самостоятельного чувашского государства. Терпеть не мог татар. Несмотря на то, что среди них находился больше полугода, не знал ни одного татарского слова. Свое презрение к ним выражал откровенно. Настаивал о переводе христианских рот под власть Власова.
Skobelev mentions Chuvash nationalist Fyodor Dmitrievich Blinov, an economist, who wanted to establish independent Chuvash state and who despised Tatars. Blinov tried to subordinate Christian companies (consisting of Chuvashes and Volga Finns) to general Andrei Vlasov movement.



After WWII Skobelev spent 10 years imprisoned in the Soviet camps.

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Dr Eisvogel
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Re: Two types of Tatar Volga Legion

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 04 Feb 2017 14:06

According to the Census of 1939 the numbers of the Volga Finns and Volga Tatars in the RSFSR were the following:

Volga Finns
Mari = 476 314
Mordvins = 1 375 558
Udmurts = 599 893
+
Chuvashs = 1 346 232

Total = 3 797 997

Volga Tatars
Bashkirs = 824 537
Tatars* = 3 682 956

Total = 4 507 493

* including Crimean and Siberian Tatars



So, the numbers were 4 507 493 : 3 797 997 => and rate between them was 1.19 : 1

Roughly speaking, the population pools were almost equal, but the number of German-raised Tatar battalions was much bigger than the Volga Finns battalions.

No surprise there.


Linguistically speaking, Udmurts are related with Komi (415 009 according to the 1939 Census), but I haven't seen Komi mentioned in relation to the question of Volga Finn battalions.

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Re: Two types of Tatar Volga Legion

Post by antwony » 04 Feb 2017 16:34

Dr Eisvogel wrote:Linguistically speaking, Udmurts are related with Komi (415 009 according to the 1939 Census), but I haven't seen Komi mentioned in relation to the question of Volga Finn battalions.
They wouldn't be mentioned as they both speak a Permian, not Volgic, language. In addition, Volga "Finn" isn't a thing.
Dr Eisvogel wrote:According to the Census of 1939 the numbers of the Volga Finns and Volga Tatars in the RSFSR were the following:

Volga Finns
Mari = 476 314
Mordvins = 1 375 558
Udmurts = 599 893
+
Chuvashs = 1 346 232
In addition to "Volga Finn" being, in my opinion, a very stupid term, the Chuvash speak a Turkic language, which is a whole different language family from Fenno- Ugric.
Dr Eisvogel wrote: Volga Finns are Orthodox Christians
Except for the Muslim ones.

To be frank, I can't be bothered trying to learn what the German's meant by the word Wolgafinnisches but it's a extremely complex subject even without trying to understand it from the Nazi's particular viewpoint. Seems quite unimportant as we seem to be talking about ~150 guys, which seems rather a poor attempt, but quite consistent with the German's failure to successfully divide and conquer its opponents

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Re: Two types of Tatar Volga Legion

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 04 Feb 2017 20:47

antwony wrote:
Dr Eisvogel wrote:Linguistically speaking, Udmurts are related with Komi (415 009 according to the 1939 Census), but I haven't seen Komi mentioned in relation to the question of Volga Finn battalions.
They wouldn't be mentioned as they both speak a Permian, not Volgic, language. In addition, Volga "Finn" isn't a thing.
Since Udmurts are included under Volga Finnic (Wolgafinnisches) label, by the same criteria the Komi could have been included.
antwony wrote:In addition to "Volga Finn" being, in my opinion, a very stupid term, the Chuvash speak a Turkic language, which is a whole different language family from Fenno- Ugric.
I've mentioned that already.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p2060651

antwony wrote:
Dr Eisvogel wrote:Volga Finns are Orthodox Christians
Except for the Muslim ones.
Such as?
antwony wrote:Seems quite unimportant as we seem to be talking about ~150 guys, which seems rather a poor attempt, but quite consistent with the German's failure to successfully divide and conquer its opponents
What is your source for the claim that the battalion(s) in question numbered ~150 men?

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Re: Two types of Tatar Volga Legion

Post by ninoo » 09 Feb 2017 19:04

Dr Eisvogel wrote:Dear Nino,

thank you for the precise answers.
ninoo wrote: While Gilyazov's ‘Legion Idel Ural’ didn't mention existence of "Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon", I found a puzzle info at http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de about the existence of Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon 837 and Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon 838.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... Btl837.htm
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... Btl838.htm

Lexikon der Wehrmacht claims that Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon 837 was formed on April 15th 1943 at Wesola near Warsaw as a part of Nordkakukasisches Legion. In November of 1943 that battalion was sent to vicinity of Bordeaux and it was destroyed in France in 1944.

Lexikon der Wehrmacht claims that Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon 838 was supposedly formed at the end of 1943 in Wesola near Warsaw also as a part of Nordkaukasisches Legion. However, its very existence is questionable according to Lexikon der Wehrmacht.

So, that leaves us with checking Nordkaukasisches Legion history as well as Wesola near Warsaw.

ninoo wrote:I remember read in one or some forgotten sources that some non-Muslim volunteers from Idel-Ural Legion didn't like to serve under a Muslim legion and try to join with Russian formations and think that maybe those two Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillons were created to accomodate theirs aspirations.
Sounds logical to me.
ninoo wrote:Aside from the Lexicon der Wehrmacht, I didn't found(yet) the existence of "Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon" in any reference about Idel-Ural Legion.
Thanks a lot. So, let's focus on Nordkaukasisches Legion.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... derung.htm
Die Nordkaukasische Legion wurde am 5. August 1942 in Radom im Generalgouvernement aufgestellt. Die Legionen waren bodenständige Dienststellen, die ausgestattet mit einem Stammpersonal für die Personalangelegenheiten der nicht-russischen Kriegsgefangenen sorgten und diese in verstärkte Feldbataillone formierten. Diese Feldbataillone wurden dann einzeln an die Front geschickt. Die Legion hatte keine Befehlsgewalt über die einzelnen Feld-Bataillone.
The text says that Legion was just an administrative unit charged with forming field battalions [such as Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon 837 and Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon 838], without command authority over the field battalions once these were formed.

Now, there was Freiwilligen Stamm-Division stationed in France established in Southeastern France on February 1st 1944 and it was responsible for all Ostvölkischen Verbände. It was divided into 5 regiments.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... ammDiv.htm

Its Freiwilligen Stamm-Regiment 2 was reponsible for all Volga Tatars, Armenians and Azerbaijanis. So, in theory Wolgafinnisches Infanterie-Bataillon 837 could have ended being part of that Regiment.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... ammDiv.htm

Wesola is in fact Wesoła, a town near Warsaw (nowadays integral part of the City of Warsaw), which had Imperial Russian army barracks, which were used by Polish Army.

There is a possibility that Wesola was administratively part of Wehrmacht's Truppenübungsplatz Rembertau/Rembertów.

Best regards,
Eisvogel
Thanks for your complete explanation. It's really help me. :thumbsup:

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Re: Two types of Tatar Volga Legion

Post by antwony » 03 Mar 2017 19:55

Dr Eisvogel wrote:
antwony wrote:
Dr Eisvogel wrote:Linguistically speaking, Udmurts are related with Komi (415 009 according to the 1939 Census), but I haven't seen Komi mentioned in relation to the question of Volga Finn battalions.
They wouldn't be mentioned as they both speak a Permian, not Volgic, language. In addition, Volga "Finn" isn't a thing.
Since Udmurts are included under Volga Finnic (Wolgafinnisches) label, by the same criteria the Komi could have been included.
As I've indicated, while I think Volga "Finnic" is an extremely stupid term, it only has any use when used as a term to describe a group of languages. To rope in groups which it doesn't include, like Udmart's, makes no sense
Dr Eisvogel wrote:
antwony wrote:In addition to "Volga Finn" being, in my opinion, a very stupid term, the Chuvash speak a Turkic language, which is a whole different language family from Fenno- Ugric.
I've mentioned that already.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p2060651
Yet you insist on describing on it as such.

Dr Eisvogel wrote:
antwony wrote:
Dr Eisvogel wrote:Volga Finns are Orthodox Christians
Except for the Muslim ones.
Such as?
I made a pretty simple statement. Some Volga "Finns" are Muslims.
Dr Eisvogel wrote:
antwony wrote:Seems quite unimportant as we seem to be talking about ~150 guys, which seems rather a poor attempt, but quite consistent with the German's failure to successfully divide and conquer its opponents
What is your source for the claim that the battalion(s) in question numbered ~150 men?
You yourself.

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Dr Eisvogel
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Re: Two types of Tatar Volga Legion

Post by Dr Eisvogel » 05 Mar 2017 15:55

antwony wrote:
Dr Eisvogel wrote:
antwony wrote:Seems quite unimportant as we seem to be talking about ~150 guys, which seems rather a poor attempt, but quite consistent with the German's failure to successfully divide and conquer its opponents
What is your source for the claim that the battalion(s) in question numbered ~150 men?
You yourself.
I couldn't have been your source, because I mentioned a company, not battalion(s).
Dr Eisvogel wrote: These memoirs mention Christian Company of 150 men, consisting of Chuvashes, Mordvins, Udmurts and Maris.
После церемонии в честь принявших присягу устроили обед. Затем состоялась встреча в христианской роте – с чувашами, мордвой, удмуртами и марийцами. В роте было 150 человек.
http://gorod.tomsk.ru/index-1228044196.php
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p2060651

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Re: Two types of Tatar Volga Legion

Post by Kurti » 25 Mar 2020 21:15

Hello guys,

I hope you all are fit and healthy in times like these.
At the moment, I'm at home with enough time to read about foreign volunteers and so I have got a question to the forum of wisdom. :)
I read that the volga tatar legion was a disaster for the germans. The legion was unreliable with no will to fight. Most of the batallions were dissolved or went to the partisans.
I know, there were a lot of reasons for that and no bataillion was like the others.
But why the germans pressed the Tatars in strict infantry units?
it wouldn't have been better to put these volunteers in calvary units?
Tatars were notorious horsemen in history, for their fighting morale and propaganda it could be a sucess.
The germans did this with the cossacks and the calmyks, why not with the tatars?

Thanks for your reply!

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