Any foreigners in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe?

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
sveahk
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Re: Any foreigners in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe?

Post by sveahk » 27 Nov 2019 09:00

Sheldrake wrote:
26 Nov 2019 17:25
sveahk wrote:
26 Nov 2019 15:55
Sheldrake wrote:
25 Nov 2019 09:15
Walter Rubensdorffer Swiss
https://www.tracesofwar.com/persons/709 ... Walter.htm
Born in Switzerland, but flying in the Luftwaffe as a German citizen.

Cheers Hans K
Like Americans in the RAF?
If the Americans had a British passport when flying in the RAF, yes.

Cheers Hans K

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Sheldrake
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Re: Any foreigners in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe?

Post by Sheldrake » 29 Nov 2019 08:55

sveahk wrote:
27 Nov 2019 09:00
Sheldrake wrote:
26 Nov 2019 17:25
sveahk wrote:
26 Nov 2019 15:55
Sheldrake wrote:
25 Nov 2019 09:15
Walter Rubensdorffer Swiss
https://www.tracesofwar.com/persons/709 ... Walter.htm
Born in Switzerland, but flying in the Luftwaffe as a German citizen.

Cheers Hans K
Like Americans in the RAF?
If the Americans had a British passport when flying in the RAF, yes.

Cheers Hans K
I am not sure what the point is of the question on this thread. This is getting bogged down in definitions of nationality.

Ownership of a passport isn't the only definition. If a person swears an oath of allegiance to the leader of one country it usually violates the terms of their previous citizenship. So a US National swearing an oath of allegiance to the British crown automatically lost their US Citizenship- though it was restored post Pearl Harbour. However, US born members of the British forces would not automatically receive a British passport. That is a policy still applying to British servicemen and women. Between 5 & 10% of the current day British Afrmed Forces are recruited from Commonwealth countries. However, that does not make them legally British citizens with a right to live in the UK until several years service and residency in the UK. Most Commonwealth countries are happy with this arrangement and allow their citizens to serve in this way. Others e.g. South Africa has mercenary laws that strip citizenship of anyone serving any other organisation as a soldier.

If this debate is restricted to the which non German servicemen remained cigtizens of their original country we have a debate about the citizenship policies of their country of birth.

The largest contingent of foreign citizens serving in the Wehrmacht were those of the Soviet Union. USSR policy was that any soviet citizen serving the Germans was a treacherous citizen, regardless of whether a Hiwi or one of the national legions - Georgian, Uzbek or Cossack or in the Latvian, Lithuanian or Estonian SS, or as an "Ethic German." How many served in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe, I don't know, but there must have been some Hiwis at least in the Luftwaffe ground forces.

"Ethic Germans" from eastern Europe served in many arms of the Wehrmacht. These were considered by the Third Reich as German citizens, but not necessarily by their birth state. Polish citizens were subject to ethnic segregation between German, Pole and Jew. Anyone judged German was eligible for service in the Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine.

sveahk
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Re: Any foreigners in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe?

Post by sveahk » 29 Nov 2019 11:24

sveahk wrote:
27 Nov 2019 09:00
If the Americans had a British passport when flying in the RAF, yes.
Cheers Hans K
...which I assumed, but obviously was not right. Depending on the country you wanted to serve, it could most certainly have been enough if you swore an oath of allegiance to that country - as Sheldrake points out.

Regarding the German Luftwaffe, we can read in Hans Werner Neulen: "In the Skies of Europe. Air Forces allied to the Luftwaffe 1939-1945" that at the beginning of the war Luftwaffe held back from recruiting foreigners, at least insofar as flying personnel were concerned. But with time the German Luftwaffe gave up its refusal to accept foreign airmen, "and by 1943-44 several hundred foreign flying personnel were in Luftwaffe service. These airmen came from right across Europe - there were flying personnel from Alsace-Lorraine, Spaniards, Italians, Russians, Croats, Danes, Norwegians, Czechs, Estonians, Latvians,Dutch and Belgians." And at least one from Brazil, as mentioned above...

The Luftwaffe High Command even found it necessary to establish a special department, so by May 1944 we had a General of Foreign Personnel - "responsible for the treatment and control of all foreigners within the Luftwaffe."

Interesting are two Swedes (with Swedish/German passports) who served high up in the Luftwaffe, but not in flying positions. Oberst Henry Schumburg and Oberstleutnant Nils Ångman. Schumburg was „Kommandant des Hauptquartiers des Oberbefehlshabers der Luftwaffe/Oberkommando der Luftwaffe“ and Ångman had his position the Luftwaffe Abwehr. I wrote about them some years ago in the swedish Skalman Forum:
http://forum.skalman.nu/viewtopic.php?f ... rg#p426479
http://forum.skalman.nu/viewtopic.php?f ... an#p552247

Hans K

bertamingo
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Re: Any foreigners in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe?

Post by bertamingo » 23 Mar 2020 11:38

Kriegsmarine:
Croatian Naval Legion had Croatians and Ukrainians in its ranks, further Croatian crews served on captured Italian ships jointly (light cruiser Niobe) or exclusively (torpedo boat TA48, escorts G102 and G104). At lease 1 harbor defense flotilla had boats crewed by Baltic sailors. Some Danish citizens served in a base protection unit in Denmark. The Norwegian paramilitary naval Hird trained sailors to serve on German ships. There were also French volunteers.

Luftwaffe:
Croatian Air Force Legion. Spanish Blue Squadron. Latvian, Estonian and ROA flying units. Lithuanian flak helpers and airport security units. Estonian flak helpers. The flying branch of Norwegian Hird. A Danish airport security unit.

CF Geust
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Re: Any foreigners in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe?

Post by CF Geust » 23 Mar 2020 15:52

Hello Bertamingo,
are you referring to the ex-Italian Niobe (unknown to me) or possibly ex-Dutch Gelderland (later Anti-Aircraft Cruiser Niobe, sunk by Soviet Baltic Fleet Air Force in Finnish Kotka harbor 16 July 1944)?

Facu90
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Re: Any foreigners in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe?

Post by Facu90 » 23 Mar 2020 21:47

Here's a croatian
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bertamingo
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Re: Any foreigners in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe?

Post by bertamingo » 24 Mar 2020 07:34

CF Geust wrote:
23 Mar 2020 15:52
Hello Bertamingo,
are you referring to the ex-Italian Niobe (unknown to me) or possibly ex-Dutch Gelderland (later Anti-Aircraft Cruiser Niobe, sunk by Soviet Baltic Fleet Air Force in Finnish Kotka harbor 16 July 1944)?
Hello CF Geust,
I meant the ex-Italian one. The ex-Dutch ship never came to the Med so it might be uneconomic to send Croatians to her. :wink:

CF Geust
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Re: Any foreigners in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe?

Post by CF Geust » 24 Mar 2020 09:48

Good morning Bertamingo,
thank you for your quick answer, and keep away from all Corona viruses!
Carl

bertamingo
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Re: Any foreigners in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe?

Post by bertamingo » 24 Mar 2020 12:31

Good morning Carl,
it's so kind of you to say so, thanks bro and take care of yourself too!
Hope it will be brought under control soon.

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Askold
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Re: Any foreigners in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe?

Post by Askold » 25 May 2020 02:17

There was a number of Ukrainian volunteers in Luftwaffe and smaller number in Kriegsmarine. Ukrainians in KM were supposed to wear a trident emblem, West Ukrainians (Galicians) were to wear a lion emblem. The Galician KM emblem was printed, but I have not seen any photos of it in wear. Some number of them served in Coastal Artillery units stationed in France. There is also a photo of Ukrainians wearing naval KM uniforms without any insignia. In Luftwaffe Ukrainian volunteers were officially part of YBB (Ukrainian Liberation Army) and were attached with Fliegergruppe Ost and later with KONR Airforce.

1. Decorated Ukrainian YBB pilots 2. Kriegsmarine soldbuch to Galician gefreiter serving in Coastal Artillery unit.
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FlyingStukas
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Re: Any foreigners in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe?

Post by FlyingStukas » 22 Jun 2020 22:34

Members of the Croatian Air Force Legion (HZL) pose in front of their Dornier Do 17Z bomber in recognition of the unit’s 1,000th sortie over the Eastern Front
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Cheers,
Filip

Tapani K.
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Re: Any foreigners in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe?

Post by Tapani K. » 28 Jun 2020 16:52

Hello,

Sonderstaffel Buschmann, later Aufklärungsfliegergruppe 127 consisted of of Estonians.

Also, there were some individual Estonian pilots serving in JG4 and JG54 after the idea of a proposed Estonian fighter unit was cancelled. The cancellation was due to Estonians losing faith In German ability to win (or even wage) the war. Several Estonian pilots demonstrated this lack of faith by taking their planes and flying to neutral Sweden.

regards,
Tapani K.

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Waleed Y. Majeed
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Re: Any foreigners in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe?

Post by Waleed Y. Majeed » 28 Jun 2020 17:46

At least 9 danes served in the luftwaffe. The most known is probably Poul Sommer. First a pilot with several noted kills and commands, then returned to Denmark to become head of the Schalburg korps before becoming head of his own “Sommerkorpset” guarding luftwaffe installations in DK. Returned to Germany in 1944 to join the SS (Germanische Leitstelle in Berlin & Copenhagen).

Waleed

Hans Blumenthal
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Re: Any foreigners in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe?

Post by Hans Blumenthal » 17 Mar 2021 12:57

sveahk wrote:
29 Nov 2019 11:24
sveahk wrote:
27 Nov 2019 09:00
If the Americans had a British passport when flying in the RAF, yes.
Cheers Hans K
...which I assumed, but obviously was not right. Depending on the country you wanted to serve, it could most certainly have been enough if you swore an oath of allegiance to that country - as Sheldrake points out.

Regarding the German Luftwaffe, we can read in Hans Werner Neulen: "In the Skies of Europe. Air Forces allied to the Luftwaffe 1939-1945" that at the beginning of the war Luftwaffe held back from recruiting foreigners, at least insofar as flying personnel were concerned. But with time the German Luftwaffe gave up its refusal to accept foreign airmen, "and by 1943-44 several hundred foreign flying personnel were in Luftwaffe service. These airmen came from right across Europe - there were flying personnel from Alsace-Lorraine, Spaniards, Italians, Russians, Croats, Danes, Norwegians, Czechs, Estonians, Latvians,Dutch and Belgians." And at least one from Brazil, as mentioned above...

The Luftwaffe High Command even found it necessary to establish a special department, so by May 1944 we had a General of Foreign Personnel - "responsible for the treatment and control of all foreigners within the Luftwaffe."

Interesting are two Swedes (with Swedish/German passports) who served high up in the Luftwaffe, but not in flying positions. Oberst Henry Schumburg and Oberstleutnant Nils Ångman. Schumburg was „Kommandant des Hauptquartiers des Oberbefehlshabers der Luftwaffe/Oberkommando der Luftwaffe“ and Ångman had his position the Luftwaffe Abwehr. I wrote about them some years ago in the swedish Skalman Forum:
http://forum.skalman.nu/viewtopic.php?f ... rg#p426479
http://forum.skalman.nu/viewtopic.php?f ... an#p552247

Hans K
Dear Hans,

my research brought me to your posts to Henry Schumburg. Last weekend i found a picture with a dedication to my great-granduncle Karl Blumenthal. The dedication is signed by Henry Schumburg, thanking Karl for his service with FFA 42 between January 15 - Mai 16. I did not expect to find much material on Henry Schumburg and was even more astonished to find he is Swedish! Does anybody know more about him, maybe also about his family in Sweden? Regarding his positions in WW2 i am wondering why there is nothing to be found as he seemed to have served high as even Chief of staff of the OKL with Hermann Göring, latest serving as a Col. in the German Luftwaffe. Would be great to also know more about this part of his history!

Regarding my great-granduncle. He was a pioneer in photography and taking pictures not only from European Higher Nobility but also was the royal photographer of the King of Württemberg and very loyal to the German Crown. He was flying as an observer in Feldfliegerabt. 42 and a couple of times co-piloting with German ace Ernst Udet. I attached the dedication from Henry Schumburg and a picture of my great-granduncle. Looking forward to knowing more about Henry Schumburg, maybe someone else can put more informations to this interesting person.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Blum ... (Fotograf)


Best regards
Hans
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sveahk
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Re: Any foreigners in the Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe?

Post by sveahk » 07 Apr 2021 16:55

Hello Hans!

Most interesting to find some more material regarding the Swedish Oberst in the German Luftwaffe, Henry Schumburg. Thank you for that! At the time, 14 years ago(!) I got a bunch of documents from the military Archive in Freiburg/Brsg - signature L2/3804 - all about Schumburg and his military career in Germany from around the middle of the thirties until the end of the war. The most important ones as I see it, you'll find in the Swedish forum Skalman: https://forum.skalman.nu/viewtopic.php? ... 73#p461773

The main part of the documents deal with his salary in the Luftwaffe, also the "Kinderzulage" for his daughter Ilse Madeleine, born in 1925. Almost nothing about his time in the I WW, only that he was a "Beobachter, Adjutant u. Abt. Führer in der Fliegertruppe" between 10.11.14-25.9.18.

One paper from 23 august 1943 says that he was bombed out at the adress Marie-Luisenstr. 55 in Hamburg. His time in Sweden after the war is open for research...

May I assume that you can read the German documents? Otherwise I'm more then happy to be of help!

If it's ok with you I like to post the photo of Henry Schumburg in one or two Swedish forum - you'll never know...!

Cheers Hans K

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