Why were the Germans so hostile to the Poles?

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
Von Schadewald
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Why were the Germans so hostile to the Poles?

#1

Post by Von Schadewald » 30 May 2006, 16:15

The Germans accepted and encouraged SS volunteers and collaborators from virtually all the countries they conquered except Poland. Why was this?

Why did they have it in for the Poles so much, which only culminated in the costly 1944 Warsaw Uprising, which could have been avoided.

The Poles were white, intelligent, good fighters, had some "Germanic" blood in them, were not renowned for being sympathetic to the Jews and Soviets themselves, and if theyd've been even partly won over, would have made a useful activist asset to the Reich.

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Marcus
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Re: Why were the Germans so hostile to the Poles?

#2

Post by Marcus » 30 May 2006, 17:16

Von Schadewald wrote:The Germans accepted and encouraged SS volunteers and collaborators from virtually all the countries they conquered except Poland. Why was this?
If you search for Poland in this section you'll find a number of threads with information on people from Poland serving with the German forces.

/Marcus


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Allen Milcic
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#3

Post by Allen Milcic » 31 May 2006, 16:53

* an off-topic and potentially insulting posting by Jon S was removed by the Moderator *

Marc Rikmenspoel
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#4

Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » 31 May 2006, 20:09

I think there is a factor that is little recognized. The Polish government of the 1920's and 30's reacted to centuries of Poles being victimized by neighboring powers by being aggressive and hostile towards its current neighbors (for example, taking a piece of the former Czechoslovakia when that country was occupied by Germany and Hungary). The Poles had French support in their endeavors, but turned the Germans (whom they fought circa 1919 for control of industrialized portions of Silesia) and the Soviets (against whom they fought a major war in 1920-21) totally against them, to the point that those two dictatorships (Poland was essentially a mild dictatorship too) would be happy with nothing less than the destruction of the Polish state. This was achieved in September 1939.

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Simes
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#5

Post by Simes » 31 May 2006, 21:03

Marc Rikmenspoel wrote:I think there is a factor that is little recognized. The Polish government of the 1920's and 30's reacted to centuries of Poles being victimized by neighboring powers by being aggressive and hostile towards its current neighbors (for example, taking a piece of the former Czechoslovakia when that country was occupied by Germany and Hungary). The Poles had French support in their endeavors, but turned the Germans (whom they fought circa 1919 for control of industrialized portions of Silesia) and the Soviets (against whom they fought a major war in 1920-21) totally against them, to the point that those two dictatorships (Poland was essentially a mild dictatorship too) would be happy with nothing less than the destruction of the Polish state. This was achieved in September 1939.
All good points, especially the one about Poland taking a slice of Czechoslovakia after the Munich agreement, shear opportunism of the highest order that one!!!

To many Germans, Poland (and Czechoslovakia) were seen as creations of the Versaille treaty, not natural states but 'buffer zones' against the spread of communism, using land taken from Germany and Austro-Hungary.

Hitler, from 1933 onwards turned this feeling into downright hatred, by proclaiming that slavs and Jews were 2nd rate humans.

There were Polish 'volunteers' and 'collaborators' serving the Nazi's, in the same way that there were Czech's.

That the numbers were not higher, has more to do with the German attitude towards the poles and czechs, than anything else.

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henryk
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#6

Post by henryk » 31 May 2006, 21:45

Simes said:
All good points, especially the one about Poland taking a slice of Czechoslovakia after the Munich agreement, shear opportunism of the highest order that one!!!

This part of Czechoslovakia had a majority population of Poles. A plebiscite was proposed for the area as part of the post- WW I boundary determinations. However it was taken by force by Czecho-Slovakia, at the time the Soviet Army was advancing to Warsaw, and Poland was forced to accept its loss. It delayed the occupation of these areas by Germany.

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henryk
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#7

Post by henryk » 31 May 2006, 22:05

http://www.ety.com/berlin/hess01e.htm
Rudolf Hess, July 8, 1934, Königsberg:
From the sacred soil of East Prussia I send out this appeal to the soldiers of the world who fought in the war. Here on this German borderland began the great world struggle that brought with it such terrible sacrifices, sacrifices from which the nations that took part in the struggle have not yet recovered. I hope that the spirits that hover over this historic battlefield from which I send out this cry of peace will help to make it effective. We now have pacts of understanding with [Poland,] our great neighbor on this eastern German frontier, thereby guaranteeing peace to the populations dwelling on both sides of this frontier. Would that the nations which stand on Germany's other frontiers might guarantee a greater degree of security for their own people, and ours, through friendly pacts of mutual understanding rather than by the heaping up of war material. That is our hope. In the memory of its dead, many of whom fell here in East Prussia, Germany's will to peace will continue to grow stronger and stronger.

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Simes
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#8

Post by Simes » 01 Jun 2006, 14:28

It's interesting that you chose the middle portion of text to highlight. The line that interests me is the last one!
henryk wrote: Germany's will to peace will continue to grow stronger and stronger.
erm...yeah right :roll:

old Rudolph had a bit of a 'forked tongue' methinks!

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Denim Demon
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#9

Post by Denim Demon » 01 Jun 2006, 14:56

probably the most important reason for anti polish attitude in germany was that the new polish state created after the first world war incorporated former german territory .

"Its incorporation, moreover of historic German land in the west and its envelopment of East Prussia, cradle of the German warrior class, would provide Hitler in 1939 with the pretext for a reprise of the aggression of 1914". p 454.
Keegan, John, (1998) The First World War Random House (UK) Limited.

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Kim Sung
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#10

Post by Kim Sung » 01 Jun 2006, 16:48

Denim Demon wrote:probably the most important reason for anti polish attitude in germany was that the new polish state created after the first world war incorporated former german territory
But it was mainly the French that gave the Poles considerable parts of German territory. Why were the Germans brutal against the Poles while they were relatively mild toward the French?

Marc Rikmenspoel
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#11

Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » 01 Jun 2006, 19:30

Part of the relative mildness towards the French was due to recognition that France's harsh terms at the Versailles treaty set up conditions which led to the Nazi ascension to power. Hitler and his circle didn't want lay the groundwork for strong anti-German feeling in France. Instead, they wanted a peaceful, calm situation in German-dominated France, so that Germany could concentrate on carrying out Nazi policy in Eastern Europe.

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Kim Sung
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#12

Post by Kim Sung » 01 Jun 2006, 20:00

It made sense! Thanks, Rikmenspoel! I've read your Waffen SS Encyclopedia, which was very helpful in understanding Waffen SS.

Regards
Kim Sung

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henryk
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#13

Post by henryk » 01 Jun 2006, 23:09

Denim Demon said ( red by me):
"Its incorporation, moreover of historic German land in the west and its envelopment of East Prussia, cradle of the German warrior class, would provide Hitler in 1939 with the pretext for a reprise of the aggression of 1914". p 454.
Keegan, John, (1998) The First World War Random House (UK) Limited.

Teutonic Knights possessions (Gdansk area and East Prussia): 1226- 1466. Polish 989-1226 and 1466 plus
First Partition: 1772; above to Prussia; mixed Polish and German population
Second Partition: 1793; Poznan area to Prussia: cradle of Poland; overwhelmingly Polish. Never German
Third Partition: 1995: Mazovia (Warsaw area) to Prussia; overwhelmingly Polish. Never German
Duchy of Warsaw; 1807-1815. Poznan and Mazovia back to Poland.
Congress of Vienna:1815: Poznan taken by Prussia
Summary;
Gdansk area: German only 1226-1466 and 1772-1918: German 402 years.
.....................Polish: 989-1226 and 1466-1772: 543 years: Historic Polish, not German!
Poznan area, German only !793-1807 and 1815-1918: 117 years. Historic Polish, not German!

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Orlov
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#14

Post by Orlov » 01 Jun 2006, 23:22

Simes wrote:All good points, especially the one about Poland taking a slice of Czechoslovakia after the Munich agreement, shear opportunism of the highest order that one!!!
I didn't discuss about complicated situation at Cieszyn Slask, but you didn't rememeber about 1920, when Czech taking a slice of Polish territory, when they coerce this same slice at conference in Belgium Spa - at this same moment Poles fightning against Tuchachevsky's Red Army at Warsaw.

But pol.-germ. hostilities start in my opinion at last time of Prussian govern of partioned Poland after victory in 1871, when Prussian start became leaders of Germany - start of propaganda of pangermanism. They started fights against Slavic - Poles, NorthernSerbs, etc.
Bestreg
Orlov

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Ivan_S
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#15

Post by Ivan_S » 02 Jun 2006, 13:35

As previously stated, germans have a long lasting conflictual relations with the poles... So it is unlikely that they would have allowed powerfull polish units, wich, sooner or later could have been a military threat for them...

Moreover, poles, due to their tragic history, are both known for beeing both anti-german and anti-russian/soviet... German policy in occupied poland (erasing polish identity) and german goals (avoiding at all costs any polish kind of state) were incompatible with a large military collaboration between the two nations...

Keep in mind that Himmler was highly reluctant to establish the first ss division made of ukrainians for similar reasons.
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