division "azul"

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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Ebusitanus
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#16

Post by Ebusitanus » 19 Aug 2002, 23:49

Luca wrote:Dear Ebusitanus,
I no speack good Espanol but maybe this is no complete.
If i remember well between "tunic" and "stay" is another phrase = cedele el paso or so.
Luca
I have read that quote from the Artillery General in a couple books already always in the same fashion. Now, don´t let me get you down. Any addition that makes that quote more heroic is more than welcome :wink: :D

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Ebusitanus
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#17

Post by Ebusitanus » 20 Aug 2002, 00:05

Weyler wrote: Also I´ve read 66% were professional military and the other 33% members of Falage...
The idea was to have about a %50 of the officerkorps and non-coms to hail from the professional army (who was anyhow filled to the brims with filo-fascist men taht had fought the communists in their civil war. The rank and file was almost all falangist militiamen and fascist students of the SEU plus some Requete national-catholics. Those proportions would remain as is or even turn more falangist as the war in the east progressed and as it was turning clear that the fight wouldn´t be over by 1942. You could fairly say that the Blue division was a truly "blue" division from the sheer amount of falangist volunteers.
I think they were between the soldiers much combat experience in the world because they were fighting from 1936.


While certainly a big part of the 250th was filled with civil war veterans, many were although youths who had missed out the civil war and filled with the victors´falangist germanophilia found it just great to get the chance to do their part.
To such an extend this is true that when the first return battalions were formed for the first exchanges of new fresh volunteers from home. Those returned were the olders, family fathers and such who would fit more in your profile of civil war veterans.
One kid of 0f 15 by 1938 was just 18 in 1941...you do the math and the idealistic factor.


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Steve
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#18

Post by Steve » 20 Aug 2002, 00:33

Spanish "Blue" Division had a personel strength of 641 officers, 2272 non-commissioned, 15780 men. After sustaining 12,776 casualties the division was withdrawn in October 43, it was mostly mostly made up of regular soldier. From November 43 a "Blue" Legion made up of 2 banderas (battalions) and a mixed bandera of artillery, anti-tank and combined companies was used against partisans on the northern sector. Five Spanish Air Force squadrons trained and equiped by the Germans served with Army Group Centre. Only one squadron served at a time at the front mainly as bomber escorts they claimed 156 Soviet aircraft.
I have no reason to doubt the publication the above comes from but you never know.

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Andy H
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#19

Post by Andy H » 20 Aug 2002, 21:23

Basic OoB for the 250th was:-

262nd Inf Regt
263rd Inf Regt
269th Inf Regt
250th Art Regt
and all other divisonal units numbered 250.

After it's re-org at Grodno in 1943 it's Inf Regt's were renamed as Grenadier Regts.

Total casualties numbered 12,726 which inc 3,934 dead, 8,466 wounded and only 326 missing, which is a testament to their fighting zeal.

:D Andy from the Shire

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FTC1048
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#20

Post by FTC1048 » 21 Aug 2002, 00:07

My father was a Lt. in the Hungarian cavalry in Russsia. Of the few things he mentioned about the war was that the Spanish were very "HARD".
He had much less favorable things to say about the Italians and the Roumanians. Does anyone have any information where the Spanish and the Hungarians would have fought side by side?
Thanks,Andy

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Andy H
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#21

Post by Andy H » 21 Aug 2002, 21:20

The Azul and legion fought in the northern area's of the Eastern Front and so many miles from the Hungarian forces of the 2nd Army. The Hungarian Cavalry were used at times as security troops in the rear area's later in the war and I'm only guessing that their paths may have crossed somewhere our that your relative hard 'Heard' that the Spaniards were tough soldiers!

:D Andy from the Shire

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Ebusitanus
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#22

Post by Ebusitanus » 21 Aug 2002, 23:32

If you read the my earlier post (the one with the photo) you can easily make a more feasible encounter in the Carpathians were a Spanish company was attached to a German outfit during late 1944.

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FTC1048
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#23

Post by FTC1048 » 22 Aug 2002, 01:04

Thanks Andy and Ebusitanus :)

He was stationed around Briansk, Russia could that have been the encounter ? I beleive he was attached to a security division. If you guys are interested in the info that I have of him read the top thread of this section titled "information about my father".



Andy

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Csaba Becze
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#24

Post by Csaba Becze » 22 Aug 2002, 12:04

Just two small notes:

Chesire: the Hungarian cavalry units werent just as a security troops in 1942. The Hungarian light divisions had just one cavalry squardons. One squadron is not enough for a big military operations. Generally, this units were reserve troops for counter attacks, but sometimes they were in the first line too.
BTW, the Hungarian cavalry was the best cavalry on the German side (ask the Russians)

About the Division Azul:
It was an excellent unit, their performance was very good. However: most of their soldiers were volunteer. They were keen and enthusiastic anti-communist soldiers, they had a lot of harms from communists (BTW, the anarchists made the biggest atrocities durint the Spanish civil war on communist side). It was a crusade for most of the Spanish soldiers (a Spanish expert professor said me, that several soldiers were conscripted, but most of them were volunteer).
Just the Finnish, Italian, Hungarian and Rumanian allies sent their normal, conscripted units to the Eastern front (the Slovaks sent just their small elite troops to the Eastern front, and the Croats sent just a Regiment near air units). You shouldn't compare the volunteer's performance with the compared soldier's performance. The motivation is one of the most important thing in a soldier's performance.
You should compare this unit just with the other allies elite units.

BTW, the division's commander was Agustin Munoz Grandes (he got the Eichenlaub from the Germans - just nine foreigners got this)

Csaba

Weyler
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#25

Post by Weyler » 22 Aug 2002, 12:09

Also my grandfather, Bodo K, was in Russian front and he told me some history about the spanish volunteers and his lack of fears.. They fought like lions although in first moment german didn´t believe very much in the military virtues in this division... We were wrong!
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Graf von Dracula
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#26

Post by Graf von Dracula » 23 Aug 2002, 21:23

I've fel surprised about the high concept that have about the "Division Azul" out of Spain.

I've read a lot about it, mainly from spanish sources. I fel that these sources were too "chauvinistic". They always depicted the unit acting at the highest levels of bravery...

After reading many files about the "Division Azul" from foreign sources, although I am catalan and have Catalan relatives that were executed during the Franquist regime, I feel proud of the high level that the "division Azul" performed.

I shall say that many of those who served in the Division Azul volunteered for Economical reasons (may be not all, but I've met with some cases). the salary in the division was quite good, and in the Post-war Spanish, many found the Division a way to earn some money for their families.

General Muñoz Grandes, who commanded the "Division", was one of the most germanophile of the Spanish generals. There were many of them who were more anglophile (many of them paid by the British Crown), and the anglophile were quite decisive in the Spanish policy of "Neutrality-non beligerancy". Once the tide turned against the Germans, Muñoz Grandes and Serrano Suñer, the two visible heads of the pro-Axis faction of the Government-Military, were silently marginated.

Best regards!

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Ebusitanus
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#27

Post by Ebusitanus » 25 Aug 2002, 12:17

Graf...When volunteers were called just after the German invasion of Soviet Russia that June, there was no talk about "payment". To say that the drive behind the massive response was to get some money sounds to me as "dark" as those who claim that many of the joining troops were in fact ex Republicans trying by joining up to find the perfect route and free ticket to desert to the communists. Mercenaries, as you seem to convey here, are not so prone to selfsacrifice as volunteers.
In any case, I´m sure you could be able to find some that would have been so "motivated" as to join up for some Reichmarks.
Those behind getting their hands on some good money had plenty of chances to get this by joining the less dangerous Todt organization and find work in the German armaments industry as many in fact did during the war years.

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#28

Post by Andy H » 25 Aug 2002, 13:47

Csaba

I'm well aware that Hungarian units inc the Cavalry didn't just provide security to the rear area's but was only putting this forth as an example of how there paths may have crossed.

:D Andy from the Shire

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#29

Post by Graf von Dracula » 26 Aug 2002, 18:27

I maybe shall have had to employ the word "some" instead of "many", but some of the troops in the "Division Azul" volunteered for economical reasons.

I wouldn't use the term "mercenary" for the unit, as the vast majority were idealist who continued a fight started in 1936. The men of the "Azul" were competent soldiers, and i wouldn't compare them using the "mercenary" word, more appropiated to the Renaissance Condottieri....

Anyway, I heard complaints about foreigners who worked in the Todt organisation (mainly Italians...) that were very badly treated in Germany, working on conditions similars to slaves. Do you know anything about it Ebusitanus?

Anyway, how is the Festung Ibiza, still standing? I am saving money to spend the next summer luxuriously there, with some colleagues ready to feel the moode there.... Best regards!

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Marcus
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#30

Post by Marcus » 26 Aug 2002, 18:31

The posts about warcrimes has been moved to a new thread.

/Marcus

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