Russians in the SS-Sonderkommando Dirlewanger

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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michalst
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Post by michalst » 03 Mar 2007 21:38

During which operations and when?

comanche
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Post by comanche » 04 Mar 2007 06:00

In 1943 the 118 was stationed in the town of Pleshinitsy . They participated under the supervision of Dirlewanger brigade in anti partisan operations in the area of Logoisk,Minsk & Begoml. The most famous was the burn of the village of Khatyn . (Sorry for my bad english)

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Post by Orlov » 04 Mar 2007 20:38

comanche wrote:In 1943 the 118 was stationed in the town of Pleshinitsy . They participated under the supervision of Dirlewanger brigade in anti partisan operations in the area of Logoisk,Minsk & Begoml. The most famous was the burn of the village of Khatyn . (Sorry for my bad english)
I recommend excellent Byelorussian/Soviet movie "Go And See" ("Idi i smotri") by Elem Klimov. about German massacre village of Khatyn in 1943 (don't mistake to Soviet massacre in Katyn Forest in 1940, this is only one letter KH and K).

But I would like ask once again about short 7-days period (4-10.08.1944):

who fought against Polish Home Army at Wolska Street
and who executed Polish civilian at nearest forecourt in tenement-houses of Wola District in Warsaw.

I didn't recognize where and which part of Sonderkommando Dirlewanger fought during first days of Warsaw's Uprising. Although I find traces of fighting route in 4-10.08.'44:
1. Wolska Street
2. Kerceli Square
3. Karolkowa St.
4. Leszno St.
5. Ogrodowa St.
6. Chlodna St.
7. Elektoralna St.
8. Krochmalna St.
9. Mirowskie Hall,
10. Mirowski Sq.
11.Zelaznej Bramy Sq.
But who's stormed and who's executed?

bestreg
Orlov

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michalst
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Post by michalst » 09 Mar 2007 20:42

Orlov:

During the anti-partisan operation „Lenz–Süd” the Polish 202 Schuma battalion was under the command of SS-Sonderkommando Dirlewanger. This operation started on the 30. of mars 1943. After 3 days the 202 Schuma battalion was moved til Borysow. During the „Lenz–Nord" operation it was under the command of 2. SS police regiment. During both anti partisan operations Polish 202 Schuma lost about 40 soldiers both dead and wounded.

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michalst
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Post by michalst » 09 Mar 2007 20:54

During the Warsaw Uprising the SS-sonderkommando consisted of only 2 battalions and one Azer battalion (Aserbeidschanisches Feld Bataillon I./111). Maybe you are referring to "angriffsgruppe Dirlewanger" which consisted of much more units.

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Post by Olaf » 09 May 2007 15:13

comanche wrote:In 1943 the 118 was stationed in the town of Pleshinitsy . They participated under the supervision of Dirlewanger brigade in anti partisan operations in the area of Logoisk,Minsk & Begoml. The most famous was the burn of the village of Khatyn . (Sorry for my bad english)
118 was a "multinational", manned by former soviet officers and soldiers & had representatives of many nations of ex-USSR - russians, ukrainians, armenians etc.

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Liluh
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Post by Liluh » 23 May 2007 16:17

Orlov wrote:
comanche wrote: But I would like ask once again about short 7-days period (4-10.08.1944):

who fought against Polish Home Army at Wolska Street
and who executed Polish civilian at nearest forecourt in tenement-houses of Wola District in Warsaw.

I didn't recognize where and which part of Sonderkommando Dirlewanger fought during first days of Warsaw's Uprising. Although I find traces of fighting route in 4-10.08.'44:
1. Wolska Street
2. Kerceli Square
3. Karolkowa St.
4. Leszno St.
5. Ogrodowa St.
6. Chlodna St.
7. Elektoralna St.
8. Krochmalna St.
9. Mirowskie Hall,
10. Mirowski Sq.
11.Zelaznej Bramy Sq.
But who's stormed and who's executed?
I think I can answer at least some of that.

My grandfather, his two brothers, uncle and close friend (who later married with their sister) fought with Dirlewangers brigade during early days of uprising in following area:

They stayed sine 6 to 11 august, Senatorska st., Bielanska st., theatrical square - area which made up an insurgent stronghold consisting of City Hall, Kanoniczki Monastery, Blank palace, Polish Bank. Most of that was held in insurgent hands till 2nd Sept, when last 'operative' AK units withdrawed through canals.

As mentioned they didnt stay there for whole month, but were one of the 7 or 8 units rotating on those post during that time. Later on they were transferred to Leszno st., again, I`m sure they faced some elements Dirlewangers, perhaps not 'exactly' the same soldiers as earlier. Although one should take a note on the fact those SS folks, plus ukrainians were not only german units around. Also SA, and surrounded, cut-off, lt. gen Reiner Stahl (commandant of garrison) in Bruhl palace (later freed by advancing Dirlewangers). In talking only about this precise area of town. In both cases germans used from two to three tanks, at least one antitank-gun (apart from long rage weapons like artillery, mortar or air bombing). As for executions in that area, 300 men, civilians, were executed in Grand Theatre, advancing Direlwangers used women and children to shield their tanks and infantry during assualts (and those civilians were inhabitants of Wola district). Ah, my family fought in Batalion Szturmowy "Nałęcz" KB AK (Assualt batallion "Nałęcz" Home Army Safety Corp).

Sources for that i.e. :

Kanoniczki 1944, author: Zdzisław Umiński, PAX Warszawa 1988
ISBN 83-211-1001-0

Has a chapter on my faimly doings ;)

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Post by Liluh » 23 May 2007 16:22

Btw. I crossed checked, Dirlewanger unit arrived in Warsaw on 4th aug. In western Wola district.

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Post by George Lepre » 24 May 2007 02:37

Great material, Liluh. Thanks for posting.

Best regards,

George

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michalst
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Post by michalst » 24 May 2007 19:41

Liluh: Great post!

Those streets you are talking about are part of the old and new town in Warsaw (Nowe i Stare Miasto). During the Uprising often referred to as "Old Town". At the end of "Old Town" fighting Germans used three assault groups (Angriffsgruppe Dirlewanger, Reck and Schmidt) to crush this what was left of it. All of the assault groups consisted of a mixture of SS,police, Wehrmacht and foreign troops (Azeris,russians,etc).

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Liluh
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Post by Liluh » 24 May 2007 20:59

michalst wrote:Liluh: Great post!

Those streets you are talking about are part of the old and new town in Warsaw (Nowe i Stare Miasto). During the Uprising often referred to as "Old Town". At the end of "Old Town" fighting Germans used three assault groups (Angriffsgruppe Dirlewanger, Reck and Schmidt) to crush this what was left of it. All of the assault groups consisted of a mixture of SS,police, Wehrmacht and foreign troops (Azeris,russians,etc).
Thx. You`re of course right about Old/New Town, which I didn`t mention out of ignorance, after all I`m living here ;) Although there were three defense groups of AK, sort of army type formed, and Old Town was incorporated under Group Center North. I`ve got more pretty neat stories from uprising, but it`s not good to do offtopics so I`m not telling all at once hehe.

Anyway, I came up on such personal account in the book mentioned earlier:

(Relation of Maria Godebska, later prisoner of Gross-Rosen camp)

"On that day (7th aug - liluh) SS-Sturmbannfuhrers Oskar Dirlewanger s group supported by squads of police and kalmuks being their assualt. Germans attack from the direction of Bank square and Wierzbowa street<...> ... the group attacking through Senatorska street without meeting ressistance enters the hospital of the Knights Hospitaller Order, and nearby houses. They bring out all of the civilians, murdering some on spot, and the rest is being pushed through Elektoralna st (in front of tanks - liluh) directing Wola district. Klamuks who recently arrived from Italy are hunting down all the young girls. One of them attempts to rape a 14 years old girl banished from nearby house, but passing german doctor shoots him right away. Following moment the doctor disappears, togheter with german nurses in the door of hospital to 'pick up' wehrmacht soldiers, who until that morning were kept as POWs in AK hands. Father of the girl runs up to her, but standing by dirlewanger puts a gun into his head and shoots. After that he shoots the mother, and catches girl by her pony tails and throws into the mob of civilians. After a little while girl runs out of the mob and kneels over the dead bodies of her parents, but the same bandit shoves her away again and smashes in the face. Girl falls down and is picked up by some civilians. German is laughing and points his scheimser at her. Same moment a motorcycle arrives and an officer jumps out shouting commands. Dirlewanger troops put down the gun and the girl gets carried away by the mob.
<...>
On the same day, SS troops banish inhabitants of Foch, Trebacka, Krakowskie Przedmiescie, and Kozia streets. Again, there are acts of rape and murders. Three hundred men are shoot in the Grand Theatre halls. Another group, around 40 men, dies in "Saski" hotel, where only a month earlier "Nur fur Deutsche" house existed. "

As for Kalmuks, it could mean simply troops of eastern origin, not necessarly in literal meaning. As for the "Nur fur Deutsche" house, the book later describes it as army brothel, where imprisoned women, mainly jewish and russian were being used as prostitutes. Suppousedly, always after three months, there was a change of shift. Girls were driven out to Sekocinski Forest and executed as by then they were "of no value". New batch arrived on mondays, bringing around 80 new girls. But that`s not directly linked with the uprising attrocities and I`m just telling it as a sort of related stuff.

There`s quite rich data about Wola district massacre, and I have impression it`s all over the net. If you`d like to have exact links, I can try to find you something about it in english.


Btw. Guys, a slight off topic. I`ve talked with my grandfather today about war, and tried to squish some details out of him. Precisely, I was interested about those tank types, we know there were at least two or three, which were engaging shielded with civilians, then after (almost each time) being set ablaze with molotov cocktails, withdrawed, and came back again etc. Grandfather said he was always pretty bad with recognizing armor types, but on my additional question confirmed they all had turrets, so it was nothing like the type captured later by insurgents. Anyone knows more about it? What type of tank, and from which unit, that`s my question.

P.S.

I have two confirmed cases when tank crews get massacred in this area, and vehicles are later recovered by another crew with some cover. Both cases are when either hatch is open, or crew is standing by the vehicle.

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Post by michalst » 08 Aug 2007 20:19

who fought against Polish Home Army at Wolska Street
and who executed Polish civilian at nearest forecourt in tenement-houses of Wola District in Warsaw.

I didn't recognize where and which part of Sonderkommando Dirlewanger fought during first days of Warsaw's Uprising. Although I find traces of fighting route in 4-10.08.'44:
1. Wolska Street
2. Kerceli Square
3. Karolkowa St.
4. Leszno St.
5. Ogrodowa St.
6. Chlodna St.
7. Elektoralna St.
8. Krochmalna St.
9. Mirowskie Hall,
10. Mirowski Sq.
11.Zelaznej Bramy Sq.
But who's stormed and who's executed?
According to Michaelis first unit from Dirlewanger Brigade arrived in Warsaw in the morning of 5th of august (1st battalion commanded by Weiss). Second battalion arrived a day later (6th of august). I'm unsure when other parts of Angriffsgruppe Dirlewanger (at the time of Warsaw Uprising Dirlewanger regiment only consisted of two battalion) arrived in Warsaw.
From your list:
1. Wolska - in the evening of 5th of august Dirlewanger units executed probably about 10 000 people from Wolska street. Most of them in "ursus" factory (5000-6000).
2. don't know
3. About 1200 people on 5th and 6th of august
4. about 800 - most from hospital located on Leszno 17 (St. Lazarus) and Leszno 30 (Karol and Maria hospital)
5. don't know
6. about 1200
7. don't know
8. about 100
9. and 10 about 100
11. don't know

Source:
Militaria 225 - "Dirlewanger"

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Post by Orlov » 10 Aug 2007 20:31

Liluh wrote:... (Relation of Maria Godebska, later prisoner of Gross-Rosen camp)
"On that day (7th aug - liluh) SS-Sturmbannfuhrers Oskar Dirlewanger s group supported by squads of police and kalmuks being their assualt. Germans attack from the direction of Bank square and Wierzbowa street<...> ... the group attacking through Senatorska street without meeting ressistance enters the hospital of the Knights Hospitaller Order, and nearby houses. They bring out all of the civilians, murdering some on spot, and the rest is being pushed through Elektoralna st (in front of tanks - liluh) directing Wola district. Klamuks who recently arrived from Italy are hunting down all the young girls. One of them attempts to rape a 14 years old girl banished from nearby house, but passing german doctor shoots him right away. ... Dirlewanger troops put down the gun and the girl gets carried away by the mob.
<...> As for Kalmuks, it could mean simply troops of eastern origin, not necessarly in literal meaning. As for the "Nur fur Deutsche" house, the book later describes it as army brothel, where imprisoned women, mainly jewish and russian were being used as prostitutes. Suppousedly, always after three months, there was a change of shift. Girls were driven out to Sekocinski Forest and executed as by then they were "of no value". New batch arrived on mondays, bringing around 80 new girls. But that`s not directly linked with the uprising attrocities and I`m just telling it as a sort of related stuff.
Kalmuks didn't fight against Warsaw Uprising.
http://www.historia.gildia.pl/wiek_20/w ... owst_warsz
Article unfortunately in Polish.

But I back to my earlier question:
1. Who murdered Poles in District Wola - Germans or Russians/Ukrainians fought in Dirlewanger unit?
2. Michaelis and excellent MacLean (also Kirchmayer, Borkievich, Kranhals, Davies) didn't write which part of Sonderkommando were use to massacre civilians and which were fight against Home Army soldiers?

cheers
Orlov

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michalst
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Post by michalst » 10 Aug 2007 20:45

Who murdered Poles in District Wola - Germans or Russians/Ukrainians from Dirlewanger?
Michaelis and excellent MacLean (also Kirchmayer, Borkievich, Kranhals and Davies) didn't write which part of Sonderkommando were use to massacre civilians and which were fight against soldier Home Army?
Since you read Maclean then you should known that there was not distinction between Germans and former Soviet POWs in Dirlewanger. Michaeali wrote a book about Dirlewanger and not about units subordninated to his unit. The Polish version of his book is just about the Sonderkommando.
Who killed civilians in Wola district? My guess is all troop that where fighting against poles. Both Germans and former Soviet POWs under German command (that includes Russians, Ukrainians, Azeris and whom else fought in Wola).

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Post by Orlov » 11 Aug 2007 18:24

michalst wrote:Who killed civilians in Wola district? My guess is all troop that where fighting against poles. Both Germans and former Soviet POWs under German command (that includes Russians, Ukrainians, Azeris and whom else fought in Wola)
Dear michalst,
I try fight agaist false about massacres prepared by Russians, Cossacks and especially Kalmucks, Ukrainians and Vlasov's soldier during Warsaw's Uprising. And when I think about Ukrainians absence at massacre, French MacLean published his marvelous monography. But nobody didn'r explain situation and whos' engaged in 5-7 bloody days in Wola District - Police/SS forces Reinefarth on north to Wolska Street and Kampfgruppe Dirlewanger on south to this street. And Dirlewanger forces vouched for many atrocites in Warsaw.
DIFFICULT PROBLEM.
Cheers
Orlov

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