Latvia & Lithuania: Viktors Arajs and the guy Klimatis

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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AAA
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Re: Latvia & Lithuania: Viktors Arajs and the guy Klimatis

#16

Post by AAA » 20 Feb 2009, 22:54

Grellber, are you not embarrased to repeat the ludicrous allegations of the Embassy of the Russian Federation in Denmark, if this page repeats any number of discredited Soviet propaganda claims (such as 46500 Jews killed in the Bikernieku forest and 100000+ soviet citizens killed at the Salaspils camp) and factual errors? Or that amazing Australia/Israel review article which, apart from making any number of allegations - little of which can actually be verified (since the case never went to trial) - opens the article by somehow allegedly getting inside Ozols own thoughts (maybe they have psychic seers on staff)?

Grellber
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Re: Latvia & Lithuania: Viktors Arajs and the guy Klimatis

#17

Post by Grellber » 21 Feb 2009, 11:37

AAA. No I am not even a bit embarrased. If I quote things that are repetitive it would typically be only because I found similar info from different sorces (or at least what at first glance appears to be different sorces). If you or anybody else want to challange anything you are ofcource perfectly free to do so. In fact i hope and believe you will do so as this increase the chances of sorting things ourt. And yes, I refer to ANY source in a language I can understand as there is far to little out there. Some of it I´m sure is not correct, but doung so brings it up on the table and we can discuss it here.

Another example: Yesterday Ilya Ehrenburg / Vasily Grossmans "The complete Black Book od Russian Jewry" arrived in my mailbox. Yes, the text was originally "commissioned" by the Stalinist government but it is still supposed to be one of the most extensive collections of info (in english). I will report back on my impressions when I´ve read it and I hope it includes info related to the topic of this thread.


WaffenLT
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Re: Latvia & Lithuania: Viktors Arajs and the guy Klimatis

#18

Post by WaffenLT » 26 Feb 2009, 00:01

Hello all,

I absolutely support colleague LIT. Those partisans are real National Heroes and I think somebody must think twice before add some info far from truth. Or just wanna provoke?

WaffenLT

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Simon K
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Re: Latvia & Lithuania: Viktors Arajs and the guy Klimatis

#19

Post by Simon K » 26 Feb 2009, 03:43

This is not a forum to disseminate propaganda of any national group.
If someone provides respectible evidence from a repected source source they can.

Grellber
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Re: Latvia & Lithuania: Viktors Arajs and the guy Klimatis

#20

Post by Grellber » 26 Mar 2009, 11:56

Well, time has passed and I´ve kept looking.
Just finished reading Raul Hillbergs Perpetrators, victims and bystanders. Om page 100 he writes: "As early as July 1, the Einsatzgruppe was in contact with Latvian personalities, notably Viktors Arajs, a young man of humble background born in a small town in 1910 who had attended the University of Riga, where he had managed to join the "aristocratic" Lettonia fraternity. He had reveived a law degree in March 1941, when Latvia was under Soviet rule, but he had also defended Latvian peasants threatened with expropriation by Soviet authorities, and he had gone into hiding before the German invasion. During the summer and fall 1941, Arajs gathered a few hundred men. They served the Einsatzgruppe and did its work (70).
Note 70: On Arajs, see the judgement against him by Hamburg court, December 21, 1979 (37) 5/76. See also the paper presented by Andrew Ezergailis, "Sonderkommando Arajs" at the Ninth International Conference of Baltic Studies in Scandinavia, Stockholm, June 3-4, 1982.

Now I´m pussled again as I´ve read that the documentation from the German Arajs trial have gone missing long ago....
Anyone who knows?

Also. Anyone who knows how to get the mentioned paper from the Ninth International Conference of Baltic Studies?

Grellber
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Re: Latvia & Lithuania: Viktors Arajs and the guy Klimatis

#21

Post by Grellber » 26 Mar 2009, 18:57

I also just read (vacation) The Complete Black Book og Russian Jewry by Ehrenburh/Grossman, 2009 edition. A rather odd experience and I guess a mix of true and exegerated statements (feel free to forrect me here). Regarding Arajs and Cukurs the book, Part 5 Latvia, 3 the dirst days of the occupation (by captain E Gehtman), page 384: "The Gebeitskommissar of the Elgave (Mitava) district was baron Emden, a baltic German. He was nicknamed the king of Zemgale because he used to own property in the Mitava area. In the district under his command Emden behaved like a tyrant; he had an insatiable thirst for power. There is evedence that he organised several hunts and roundups of jews. The list of his accomplices for one of these hunts is also known: Captain Cukurs, Major Arajs, the prefect of Riga Stiglitz, Untersturmfuhrer Jäger, and some Baltic Germans -The Bruns brothers and Gruppenfuhrer Kopitz".

Well, I have never ever encountered this statement before. Anyone who knows the origin?

Grellber
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Re: Latvia: Viktors Arajs

#22

Post by Grellber » 28 Mar 2009, 14:05

Regarding Riga and synagogues, Arajs name pops up.


Source: http://www.roots-saknes.lv/Ethnicities/ ... nagoge.htm

On July 4, 1941, that is 70 years later, the Synagogue building was burned down some days after the Nazi troops entered Riga (July 1, 1941), which started the Holocaust in the region of Latvia.

It is known that many Jews perished in the burning Synagogue and that they were mainly from Ðiauliai. They tried to escape the Nazi Army by moving in the northern direction to Riga but were trapped there and obviously were allowed by local Jews to stay at the Synagogue. The list of Jewish doctors in Latvia compiled by Eva Vatere /Vatere/ informs that Hana Paturska, a dentist, was burned in this synagogue. The memoirs of a holocaust survivor Elmars Rivoðs /Koval/ assert that Moòa Nags was captured on Riga streets and burned alive in a synagogue, maybe in this one. Actually at this day at least three synagogues were burned down. The both authors do not inform what were their sources of the primary information.

J.Jiezçns, who joined the Nazi killer squad in August 1940, after the war witnessed to the investigators of MGB that the Jews in the Synagogue were shot before the fire was set, and named the commander of the group Viktors Arâjs and one of the killers - Çriks Tobiass (See - /Silabriedis/, where the facsimile of the original written evidence is published). This witness did not see the action by himself, however, but heard the stories about it in his squad. The name Jiezçns in the spelling Iezçns was found on the list of the participants of Arâjs Command /Ezergailis/ and on the list of arrested persons /Prâvas/. It seems technologically rather reasonable to shot all of the Jews in the Synagogue, because the process of the fire setting was rather complicated - this was a stone building, and firewood and gasoline was brought to arrange a good fire - the Jews could only disturb the hard work in setting the fire.

The total number of the victims is very difficult to estimate, because various sources give different figures: from a fantastic one - 2000 to nobody at all. J.Jiezçns wrote in the above mentioned evidence that he had heard stories that several hundreds of Jews were killed in the Synagogue. I think that the most realistic number were about 100, however. The burning took place in Shabbat evening, and one could suppose that many Jews visited synagogues, but at that time the curfew was imposed, and nobody was allowed to walk on streets in the evening. But, of course, the 2000 Jews not burned in the Synagogue on July 4, did not survive the Holocaust. In any case, if you have any Jewish relatives who lived in prewar Ðiauliai you may consider the possibility that they tried to escape invaders in the Northern direction and to perish in Riga Synagogue.

imanc
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Re: Latvia & Lithuania: Viktors Arajs and the guy Klimatis

#23

Post by imanc » 08 Apr 2009, 17:38

About Herberts Cukurs. My intention is not to say he was innocent of anything, but, his case is more complex then Arājs.
As far as I have read, and I'm not really specialist in his case, but there seems to be only few "hard-known facts" about him during the war.
1) He definitely was connected to Arajs's group, seems that at the minimum, he was their mechanic.
2) The only account that I have seen on his involvment in mass killings is dubious - him killing infants and drinking their blood and singing, dancing during this in public, shouting "give me their blood" (??), I have seen just one source for this and I doubt it, especially the "drinking blood" part. However, modern russian sources consider this to be enough to dispell any doubts. I'm not so sure.
3) Seems that UK and Brazil considered him to be not responsible for war crimes, or at least it is mentioned in his letters that they have issued such documents for his usage. Should be possible to trace such documents? Also in his letters it seems that he is openly and without trace of shame searching support letters from some embassy's and institutions because jewish organisations are saying bad things about him.
4) I haven't seen that any court or war tribunal - Israel's, Soviet Union's, Allied or any other would have had his case and judged him as responsible for war crimes. Maybe there has been such court, then it's authority would be enough to consider him war criminal or not. Though it seems to be true that he was killed by Mossad (or some non-governmental organisation).
5) In his letters he writes that during the war he was hidding one jewish girl in his house and that jewish organisations forbid his family to meet this girl after the war. It should be possible to find if any other source can confirm this, though I have seen it only in his letters.
6) While living in Brazil he did not try to hide his identity.
7) His letters seemed to indicate that he was slightly antisemitic (by modern standarts). However, it looked very much like tipical attitude towards the jews that existed in interwar period in Latvia - it was NOT aggresive, more like "let's better go shopping in Latvian shops", slogan used sometimes (for example dictator Ulmanis I think used it once), with nobody trying to implement it. So slight, folkish or rural-minded antisemitism - yes, probably. Nazi like antisemitism - didn't notice a trace of it.

So, my personal opinion is that his case is tricky and not clear at all. Maybe his letters (one of main, but not the only source I've read about him) are hoax by some modern supporters of him, though their language, words, way to say things seems very much valid. Jewish organisations just after the war might be furious enough to consider even non-conclusive evidence on individual person from Arajs's group to be enough for excecution - maybe, not sure.
Probably his case could be solved by few dedicated researches (Ezergailis is not enough), because appearently, there are some serious white spots that should be solvable. Until then, I think calling him personally a mass murderer - because he was part or closely connect with Arajs's group - is hardly grounded in known facts.

Some sources, mostly latvian -
http://www.freewebs.com/brazilija/brazilija.htm
wikipedias (latvian, english, russian, jidish) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herberts_Cukurs (some citings of Ezergailis)
http://herbertcukurs.blogspot.com/

Grellber
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Re: Latvia & Lithuania: Viktors Arajs and the guy Klimatis

#24

Post by Grellber » 08 Apr 2009, 19:26

Hi

You´re on the wrong thread.

There is a dedicated Cukurs thread here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=1162266
Very interesting, what you state. Please repeat it under the correct thread, and when you do -you might want to check out what Simon Wiesentehl Center has to say about Cukurs guilt (search for "Herberts Cukurs, certaibly guilty"). Would be great to hear your comment on this. A book by Frank Gordon which i bought in Rigas occupation museum also contains a story about a woman, which Cukurs "spared/saved", or was it the Jewish org in Rigas web-site? Can´t remember for sure right now.

imanc
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Re: Latvia & Lithuania: Viktors Arajs and the guy Klimatis

#25

Post by imanc » 08 Apr 2009, 19:43

Ah, I didn't know there was seperate thread for Cukurs, thanx. I just saw that Lithuanians expressed the point that knowing killer/being with him in one photo, does not make one a killer too, that person is not guilty before proven guilty, so I wanted to say that Cukurs might also be similar case. Ok, if nobody minds, I'll repost my post there too, as I think it applies to both.

Avalon
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Re: Latvia & Lithuania: Viktors Arajs and the guy Klimatis

#26

Post by Avalon » 08 Apr 2010, 01:47

This thread seems to be diverting somewhat from Lithuania to Latvia. There is a big difference between Latvian and Lithuanian involvement. There was a Latvian SS Unit but similar efforts to recruit in Lithuania couldn't even get 200 to volunteer. This is no disrespect to the Latvians as mnay saw this as a way of fighting there former soviet oppressors.
I was speaking to an eminant Lithuanian Professor , who told me that one reason for the outbreak of anti jewish sentiment is that several prominant Jews collaberated with the Soviet invaders in 1940. They indentified prominant civic and business leaders to teh NKVD who then exterminated them. Understandably but not justifiably , there was a backlash against Jews wnen the Nazis evicted the Soviets. It was an occupation rather than a liberation. when the Lithuanian Army refused to fight under german Command it was dispanded and its generals put in a concentration camp. It was then that the remenants of teh Lithuanian Army took to the Forests to fight the Soviets on their own terms. I've tried to relay what maybe a contriversial aspect of Baltic history in an unbiased and factual way.

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