American volunteers

[Ljotrulf]

I think it's a mistake to take a half-dozen oddballs and use them as "evidence" that a "nation" participated in the "Waffen-SS crusade". We shouldn't rat-hole into Americans of the "SS George Washington Brigade" on this thread.

Nobody is using this as "evidence" that a "nation" participated in the "Waffen SS Crusade"

Nobody is rat-holing into Americans of the SS George Washington Brigade as you said

Like Panzermahn, I fail to see anyone claiming the presence of US citizens in the Waffen-SS as evidence of participation in the "Waffen-SS crusade" (whatever that is). To dismiss them as "a half-dozen oddballs" seems rather flipant since so little is known about them. The men of the British Free Corps have been extensively studied subsequent to the release of information held in the National Archive and it is a pity that US historians do not appear to have been as active in uncovering information on their citizens who served in the Waffen-SS.

[Rob - wssob2]

Nobody is using this as "evidence" that a "nation" participated in the "Waffen SS Crusade"

For an example of the mythology of the multiethnic, multinational SS, see Richard Landwehr's The European Volunteer Movement in World War II at http://www.vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/2/1/ ... 59-84.html

Nobody is rat-holing into Americans of the SS George Washington Brigade as you said

Panzermahn provided a list of 14 Americans who Charles Martel Comms (?) identified as Waffen-SS and asked for more information about them. It's off topic to the subject of Pierre de la Ney du Vair.

To dismiss them as "a half-dozen oddballs" seems rather flipant since so little is known about them.

It's not a flippant assessment but accurate. du Vair doesn't represent a US statistical trend, or a political movement, or anything other than an odd duck individual with a personal penchant for fascist authoritarianism. He apparently didn't make much of an impression in French collaborationist or SS circles.

The men of the British Free Corps have been extensively studied subsequent to the release of information held in the National Archive and it is a pity that US historians do not appear to have been as active in uncovering information on their citizens who served in the Waffen-SS.

The BFC, while a fascinating unit, has garnered a fame completely out of proportion to its size or effectiveness. While I appreciate the research efforts of Adrian Weale and others, I tend to think that everything that needed to be said about the unit was said by Dame Rebecca West in her 1964 book The New Meaning of Treason

AHF member Malbret17 back in 2008 wrote this brief bio sketch on du Vair: (see http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=58686)

The real name of Peter Delaney was Peter de la Ney du Vair. He has been called in some historical books De la Noue du Vair.
He has been the director of l'Ecole des Cadres de la Milice française d'Uriage then was member of the Légion des Volontaires Français, then entered in the Corps des Volontaires Français or Corps Franc Français which was situed close to Bordeaux, in domaine Le Chevalier at Léognan. The leader of this organisation was André Besson-Rapp.
He came after to Charlemagne division then in Kurt Eggers division.He was with all his family, wife and children, in France and in Germany. The last of his sons is born in 1944 in Saint-Germain-en-Laye. Pierre de la Ney du Vair has been killed in the airplane bombardment of his train on 11 April 1945 in Germany. He died in his son's arms who was eleven.
There is a lot of others things to tell about this man but are still secrets.
Perhaps is it possible to join his son ?

If duVair did die in his son's arms, it goes a long way towards explaining the son's tone in his letter to Marcus.

[Ljotrulf]

For an example of the mythology of the multiethnic, multinational SS, see Richard Landwehr's The European Volunteer Movement in World War II at http://www.vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/2/1/ ... 59-84.html

I doubt if Landwehr is a contributer to this site and I suspect Panzermahn was only referring to this site. Whist I do not agree with much of Landwehr's writings and conclusions, by the end of the war, the Waffen-SS could be considered multi-national since there was scarcely a nation in Europe that did not have volunteers in the Waffen-SS.

To dismiss them as "a half-dozen oddballs" seems rather flipant since so little is known about them.

It's not a flippant assessment but accurate. du Vair doesn't represent a US statistical trend, or a political movement, or anything other than an odd duck individual with a personal penchant for fascist authoritarianism. He apparently didn't make much of an impression in French collaborationist or SS circles.

This seems to be more your opinion rather than "accurate". Du Vair was one man about whom a fair bit is now known. Other US volunteers in the Waffen-SS (and other branches of the Wehrmacht) remain virtually unknown and to dismiss them all as oddballs does indeed seem flippant to me. They are worthy of study not because they may represent the vanguard of an authoritarian trend in 1930s America, but because they represent an interesting historical curiosity. If they do not interest you then fair enough but the fact that you are contributing to this thread implies some sort of interest.

The BFC, while a fascinating unit, has garnered a fame completely out of proportion to its size or effectiveness. While I appreciate the research efforts of Adrian Weale and others, I tend to think that everything that needed to be said about the unit was said by Dame Rebecca West in her 1964 book The New Meaning of Treason

Again I disagree. West's account reflects her own prejudices and does not benefit from the information which emerged from private research and documentation released by the National Archives. People are interested in the BFC not because it was an effective military unit but rather because it was a historical curiosity against a background of Anglo-German relations.

I believe there is some information regarding De la Ney du Vair in the book "Knight-monks of Vichy France: Uriage, 1940-1945" by John Hellman.

[Adrian Weale]

In a large organisation like the Waffen-SS it is relatively easy to find all manner of individuals with complex parentage and birthplaces. 'Bob' Rößler, the British Free Corps' interpreter, was born in China of a German father and English mother: it didn't make him Chinese; he considered himself a German, and so did the SS. Thomas Cooper was born in London of an English father and a German mother but was considered a German by the SS. If you look through the indices of the old BDC files at the US National Archives, there are plenty of apparently English, Scottish and Irish surnames belonging to perfectly respectable Germans, and equally large numbers of Germans born outside the frontiers of the Reich. The Waffen-SS survey of May 1940 showed that out of over 124,000 members of the Waffen-SS, more than 40,000 were born outside the borders of the pre-1933 Reich:

In June 1940, Waffen-SS membership broke down as follows:

German citizens from:

• Germany (pre-1933 borders) 83,442

• Austria 14,694

• Sudetenland 7693

• Bohemia and Moravia 799

• Memelland 143

• Baltic States 516

• South Tyrol 781

• Upper Silesia 2803

• Warthe and Vistula 10,809

• Volhynia 359

• General Government 1123

• Saarland 103

• Danzig 237


Ethnic Germans from:

• Romania 110

• Hungary 24

• Denmark 40

• New Guinea 1

• France 84

• Switzerland 21

• Slovakia 83

• Italy 15

• USA 8

• Holland 7

• Latvia 2

• Japan 2

• Sumatra 2

• Danzig 2

• Russia 81

• Belgium 7

• German South-West Africa 3

• German East Africa 2

• Saarland 5

• Yugoslavia 48

• China 3

• Brazil 4

• Luxembourg 4

• Spain 2

• Great Britain 10

• South America 2

• Ukraine 5

• Bosnia 1

• Bulgaria 1

• Palestine 2

• Australia 1

• Hultschiner Ländschen 1

• Mexico 1


Foreign volunteers of ‘Germanic’ blood from:

• Hungary 1

• Switzerland 44

• Dutch East Indies 1

• Denmark 1

• Great Britain 8

• Greece 3

• Poland 3

• Italy 3

• Holland 4

• Finland 1

• France 8

• Yugoslavia 1

• Belgium 4

• Romania 2

• German South-West Africa 2

• Sweden 3

• Ukraine 1

• German East Africa 4

• Palestine 1

• USA 5

• Russia 1

• General Government 10

From NARA T-175/50/626381

My suspicion is that the numbers of Americans in the Waffen-SS who were considered American as opposed to 'Volksdeutsche' was always very small.

Going back to De Laney and his ilk, a lot of revisionist writers have sought to mythologise the actions of people who were, frankly, wacky extremists: De Laney/'du Vair' is a prime example.

Finally, one of the reasons that I started researching the British Free Corps and other English speaking collaborators was because of the inadequacy of Rebecca West's book at explaining anything much. West attended a few of the trials and courts-martial and produced some interesting reportage, but she did little further research and all of the various versions of 'The Meaning of Treason' are packed with speculation and conjecture bolstered with 'facts' which are simply wrong.

[Ljotrulf]

In a large organisation like the Waffen-SS it is relatively easy to find all manner of individuals with complex parentage and birthplaces.

Indeed. There were a number of Waffen-SS men from the Legion Wallonie and Legion Vlaanderen who were born in Britain (having been born here when their parents were here as refugees during WW1) but that does not make them British. There were other Waffen-SS soldiers with British connections, such as the Swede Ulf Hamilton and the Baltic German Robert Beckmann but that is not really all that surprising since the British settled all over Europe for various reasons.
As for the Volksdeutschen, this would appear to be something of an "elastic" description but one which still has significance today since those who can show German ancestry have the right to (re)settle in Germany (at least those from Eastern Europe).

[Panzermahn]

In a large organisation like the Waffen-SS it is relatively easy to find all manner of individuals with complex parentage and birthplaces. 'Bob' Rößler, the British Free Corps' interpreter, was born in China of a German father and English mother: it didn't make him Chinese; he considered himself a German, and so did the SS. Thomas Cooper was born in London of an English father and a German mother but was considered a German by the SS.

Sonderführer (Sprachmittler) Frank Chadwyd (Chadwick?) Becker of the Indische Freiwillige Legion der Waffen SS has a German father and a British mother like in the case of Wilhelm 'Bob' Roessler but I think the most famous case would be William Patrick Hitler, son of Alois Hitler and Bridget Dowding, nephew of the Führer himself.

Werner G. Göring who served in the USAAF in WW2 and spoke fluent German, participated in bombing missions in Germany, was the nephew to Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring

[duVair]

I am Pierre Henri Serge Marie Joseph de La Ney, Comte du Vair as can be verified by my birth certificate

(except I was at the time a viscount) .

In June, 1928, at the French Consulate in Rome, Italy, my father Pierre Louis Jean de La Ney, Comte du Vair

was officially recognized by France as being a Frenchman and as having been a Frenchman from birth. As to

American citizenship, on June 23, 1932, one week after he received his doctorate, again in Rome, Italy, he

officially -- and in writing -- renounced any claim he might have -- or the USA might have on him -- relative to

citizenship.

I think that's pretty clear.
Pierre Henri du Vair
-----------------------------------

Je suis Pierre Henri Serge Marie Joseph de La Ney, Comte du Vair, ce qui peut être vérifié en lisant mon acte de

naissance (sauf qu'à l'époque j'étais un vicomte).

Au mois de juin, 1928, au Consulat de France à Rome, en Iltalie, mon père, Pierre Louis Jean de La Ney, Comte

du Vair fut officiellement reconnu par la France comme étant Français et ayant été Français dès sa naissance.

En ce qui concerne la nationalité américaine, le 23 juin, 1932, une semaine après avoir reçu son doctorate,

encore une fois à Rome, il renonça officiellement -- et par écrit -- non seulement à un possible droit à la

nationalité américaine -- mais aussi au droit que les Américains auraient pu avoir en ce qui à affaire avec sa

nationalité.

Il me semble que c'est clair et net !

Pierre Henri du Vair
-------------------------------------

[Panzermahn]

Bonjour Monsieur du Vair

Thanks for explaining the citizenship of your father. I am interested in your father's service with LVF and SS Kurt Eggers Regiment (PK) from 1944-45.

Since he was involved in broadcast with the Kurt Eggers unit and he was formerly from LVF before its disbandment, do you know if he knew personalities such as Mildred Gillars (Axis Sally), John Amery (Lord Haw-Haw) and Jean Fontenoy (LVF PK officer)?

Many thanks
Panzermahn

[Marcus]

A post by Ljotrulf containing remarks continuing the discussion closed by both myself and George earlier in the thread was removed.

/Marcus

[Ljotrulf]

A post by Ljotrulf containing remarks continuing the discussion closed by both myself and George earlier in the thread was removed.
/Marcus

Seem there was scope for misinterpretation but not regarding de la Ney du Vair's nationality. It is certainly not beyond the realms of possibility that de la Ney du Vair would have become involved in the struggle against global Communism during the Cold War had he survived WW2. Several former members of the Kurt Eggers Standarte were pressed into service by the US to help with the propaganda war against the Soviet Union in the early days of the Cold War, the most notable case being the former Commander Gunter d'Alquen.

[George Lepre]

A rambling post by member "du Vair" has been removed for violating the following forum guideline:

* No insults are tolerated (that includes serious national and religious insults)

[duVair]

In February, 1944, Pierre Louis de La Ney du Vair joined the French anti-Bolshevik Legion (Légion des Volontaires Français contre le bolchevisme), or LVF, at Versailles, France, with the rank of Captain. In April, 1944, at the LVF training camp in Greifenberg (today called Gryfice) in Poland, Pierre headed the 14th Company. He was very briefly on the Eastern Front.
Dr. Ahrens of the Auswartiges Amt, the German Foreign Ministry, had gained control of Pierre, having considered him to be « a find. » He was assigned - administratively only - to Wehrmacht Propaganda IV. He was provided an office -- as a French Légionnaire -- at the Standarte Kurt Eggers in Berlin-Zehlendorf. This was a unit entirely composed of war correspondents of many nations.
Due to his extensive linguistic capabilities – Pierre spoke seven languages with great easy – and his very extensive education – doctorate in Rome -- he was assigned to radio broadcasting at Königswusterhausen, in the southeastern part of the Berlin area. It was agreed that his emissions were to be strictly anti-Bolshevik. At first, he worked of the « kampfsenders ». These were small mobile radio transmitters for the front and developed at the Standarte Kurt Eggers. It should be noted that the most important anti-Bolshevik work was actually not done at the Standarte Kurt Eggers, a reporters’ unit. The anti-Bolshevik talks for the radio in Königswusterhausen – and also at the Nauen radio station -- were transmitted via short-wave in three languages to all global zones with concentration on Western Europe (in German, Italian, and French) and on North America (in English and French). In the U.S., many of his talks were captured by the American SHINDA station in Silver Hills, Maryland, which belonged to the FCC. The transcribed recordings of Captain du Vair’s talks are in the national archives in Maryland, N.A.R.A. section 242.
Captain du Vair developed and delivered his talks without any script of any kind. He – with some difficulty – convinced the Germans to allow him to create the « The Roundtable Conferences » to which he invited well-known speakers with first-hand experience in fighting communism and with intimate knowledge of Soviet atrocities.
Pierre de La Ney du Vair had never hidden his hopes for the disappearance of German National-Socialism. He also yearned that France be freed from German occupation. And, in his speeches, he called for a reversal of alliances, whereby many countries would join the efforts to put a halt to Soviet occupation in Europe and put an end to international communism.

As early as 1941, Pierre had written ….
Annecy, France, March 3, 1941
« …Note that America has not yet been attacked by anyone. But America is clearly talking about extending the scope of the war, necessarily putting Japan into it, and making it an ideological war. America has only its own interests in mind. With whom will they go to bed in their search of supremacy?
With Communism? God forbid !
American material assistance to Stalin could cause the destruction of Europe and its Christian civilization. »
The above is extracted from a letter by Captain Pierre Louis de La Ney du Vair, officer in France’s 152nd Infantry Regiment, demobilized subsequent to the fall of France in 1940.

He never deviated from this conviction.

[Panzermahn]

Hi duVair

Thanks for posting the additional information on the Pierre de la Ney's activities with the Kurt Eggers unit.

I believed de la Ney du Vair sees himself as true-blood European, just like how Henri Fenet, Christian Frederik von Schalburg, Leon Degrelle, Alfons Rebane, Harald Nugiseks, and other European volunteers united together in a common stance against the communism.

No doubt if Pierre de la Ney du Vair survived the WW2, the OSS would have recruited him (especially Radio Free Europe would be most likely destination) against the Soviets in the approaching Cold War after end of WW2.

[lebel]

Bonjour Monsieur du Vair

do you know if he knew personalities such as Mildred Gillars (Axis Sally), John Amery (Lord Haw-Haw) and Jean Fontenoy (LVF PK officer)?

Many thanks
Panzermahn

You have to review your readings , Mr Panzermahn

Lord Haw Haw was William Joyce who broadcast nazi propaganda towards his fellow citizens
John Amery , british fascist and nazi propagandist , was the son of Leo Amery , MP and minister in Churchill cabinet
Amery and Joyce , guilty of treason , were sentenced to death , both were hanged

[Panzermahn]

Bonjour Monsieur du Vair

do you know if he knew personalities such as Mildred Gillars (Axis Sally), John Amery (Lord Haw-Haw) and Jean Fontenoy (LVF PK officer)?

Many thanks
Panzermahn

You have to review your readings , Mr Panzermahn

Lord Haw Haw was William Joyce who broadcast nazi propaganda towards his fellow citizens
John Amery , british fascist and nazi propagandist , was the son of Leo Amery , MP and minister in Churchill cabinet
Amery and Joyce , guilty of treason , were sentenced to death , both were hanged

Ah, Monsieur Lebel (Lavella in Feldgrau forum?), nice to see you back here again.

Thanks for correcting my mistake. I had mix-up John Amery with William Joyce

best regards
Panzermahn