American volunteers

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
Larry D.
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Re: German American Volunteers

Post by Larry D. » 12 Oct 2005 12:47

Jacky Kingsley wrote:Hi

Has anyone written about American volunteers in the German Army? Before America entered the war if they had dual nationality were they treated as German? What happened after America entered the war? How many men fought for Germany and what did America do and how were they treated if they returned to America?

Thank you

Jacky
There are number of PhD. dissertations and articles on this subject that have appeared over the last 40+ years in scholarly journals. I know because I remember seeing them listed in indexes and while doing research on other subjects in these same journals. If you go to a large public library and ask a reference librarian, he or she can help you access these articles and dissertations through the various indexing software. Unfortunately, this indexing software is not available on the internet. It is usually found only in university and public libraries. However, a very limited form of it can be found at this web site: http://www.findarticles.com/

I'm also sure that there must be a book or two on the subject.

Jacky Kingsley
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Post by Jacky Kingsley » 12 Oct 2005 15:17

HI Larry, CGetty and Rand

Thank you for your suggestions. I will follow up the information you have given me.

Jacky

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Daniel Laurent
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Post by Daniel Laurent » 15 Oct 2005 13:05

Rand wrote: There is also a book on American volunteers in the W-SS that is always on sale on E-bay. It is called Fleur-de-lys? My french is horrible......
Rand.
Hi Rand
Fleur de Lys
I don't know the book you mentions, but the Fleur de Lys (Lily flower) was the emblem of the Kings of France. I wonder what it has to see with American Waffen SS :?
Regards
Daniel
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Rand
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Post by Rand » 15 Oct 2005 18:58

To Daniel Laurent,

the American W-SS volunteer Du Vair, the subject of the book was a strict monarchist. This should explain the author's choice of title. The book itself is a cheap, almost homemade copy, but it is only 8.99 pounds, which for the rare info it contains, is quite worth it. The author tracked down the surviving members of the Du Vair family, and the book has some previously unpublished photos of Du Vair.

The book is always for sale on e-Bay, and while I have bought a few books from the publisher, this is the only one that I don't regret getting....

Cheers, Rand.
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Rand
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Post by Rand » 15 Oct 2005 18:59

Whoops...... that scan came out really big.......huge......

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Daniel Laurent
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Post by Daniel Laurent » 16 Oct 2005 04:15

Hi Rand,

I am afraid that this book is not accurate (Understatement :x )
du Vair has never been a Waffen SS and, if born in the USA, has never been an American citizen, but a French citizen.
Allow me to quote the son of Mr. du Vair:

"Just to respond to all the nonsense written about Pierre Louis de La Ney du Vair, my father. No, he was not Canadian, no he was not born in Louisiana. No, he was not killed in Berlin, no he was never in the Charlemagne not in the Sturmbrigade Frankreich.

He was a French citizen all of his adult life even if he was born in Holcomb Missouri. And you will not find a "Peter Delaney" born there on February 8, 1907, his birth date. He was drafted by the French Army (class of 1927, France drafted 20-year-olds). He was not called to arms until 1935, having been deferred due to his studies (doctorate). In 1935, drafted, he enrolled in the EOR (École des Officiers de Réserve). Lieutenant in the Red Devils regiment (152ème Régiment d'Infanterie, Colmar, Alsace, First of the Regiments of France) which recaptured Rethel twice from Guderian's panzer units, he served at the Italian armistice commission in 1941 (He spoke 7 languages fluently)
He pledged an oath to the French Head of State, Philippe Pétain and kept that oath. In late 1941, he joined the Légion Française des Combattants and later its Service d'Ordre Légionnaire, the SOL, creating the Haute-Savoie unit at Annecy. He opened a first school for officers at Annecy which caught the attention of Joseph Darnand who selected him to open a national school at St-Cyr-au-Mont-d'Or near Lyon in 1942.
He was also named to the Secretariat of the Milice as head of the Third Service, Milice formation, Vichy. He also open school under local direction at Tarbes, Agens, Toulouse. When the men of the SOL were transferred into the new Milice Française in January, 1943, du Vair opened L'École Nationale des Cadres de la Milice Française at the château d'Uriage near Grenoble. Pierre Louis de La Ney du Vair's doctrine was that of the Révolution Nationale of Maréchal Pétain, a nationalist doctrine one hundred percent French. When Darnand's doctrine began to change, du Vair refused to alter his teachings and a major rupture which almost became violent took place at Uriage in July 24, 1943 when Darnand with 200 soldiers explused him.
He joined Besson-Rapp at Bordeaux (Léognan) for a mere two months since the SOL doctrine prevailed there. Besson-Rapp headed the Corps Franc Français and tried to launch the Corps des Volontaires Français which never saw light of day. du Vair left earlier than that realizing that the outfit was badly managed and oriented. Pierre Louis de La Ney du Vair was fervently Catholic, respectful of both 1937 encyclicals, one against Communism, the other against German national socialism. To him there were two devils threatening Christianity in Europe (Hitler and Stalin).
To him the more dangerous one to France was Stalin and his goal of worldwide communism. French resistance was heavily communist with clear intentions of taking power at the end of the war... a real Trojan horse. du Vair had an immense love for his country, France, as do I, and he was a royalist, a friend of Charles Maurras, a representative of the Count of Paris, and anti-parliarmentarian, a nationalist, and fiercely anti-communist. In 1944, he joined the LVF (Légion des volontaires français contre le bolchevisme), joining those Frenchmen who were effectively the new crusaders of modern times in a hopeless battle to prevent exactly what happened...half of Europe under communist control, poor Catholic Poland. He briefly headed the LVF school at Montargis and was sent, April, 1944, to Greifenberg in Poland where he headed the 14th Company. In the late summer of 1944 the Aswartiges Amt (Foreign Affaires in Berlin) brought him to the war correspondents unit, the Kurt Eggers at Zehlendorf with the understanding that he would work only on anti-bolchevik suject. At the Kurt Eggers, he was involved with the Kampsenders, mobile radio transmitters to the war fronts with anti-bolchevik talks. He then began to share his time with the radio at Königswusterhausen, speaking on short-wave in 4 languages and heading the antibolchevik "Roundtable", in which his wife participated. You can listen to his anti-bolchevik speeches at NARA. They were captured by SHINDA, the Silver Hills, MD spy station. Short synopsis do not do justice to this man who came out of the ordinary. But it is a lot better than the usual errors and fabrications. Incidently, he was a direct descendant of the Counts of Vair, those who built the fortifications of Vannes in Britany (de La Nouë family. deLaNey being an error made by American authorities. At Uriage he used his his name "de La Noue du Vair and not that of his birth certificate) My book on his life be be out shortly to maybe put an end to all the nonsense and wild imaginations. I might add that he heard of James Monti, prisonner of war in a camp near Berlin, and managed to get his out of that prison camp. Monti was a rather frail person with anti-bolchevik convictions. du Vair was able to get him into a German uniform for his escape to Italy which saved his life. My father died a few kilometers from Czechosolakia in Vogtland between Bernsgrün and Mehltheuer. He died at my side the day after the destruction of Plauen (night of the 10th of April, 1945) when US airmen incessantly attacked and killed refugees on a refugee train. I have a long memory. Je me souviens !
Pierre Henri du Vair"
Source: this forum :lol:
Pierre du Vair also posted a photo of his father in this thread:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=15

Regards
Daniel

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Rand
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Post by Rand » 16 Oct 2005 16:01

Wow, thanks for the heads up..... Looks like I wasted some money on this book..... :x

Cheers, Rand.

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Daniel Laurent
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Post by Daniel Laurent » 16 Oct 2005 16:16

Hi Rand,
No money is wasted in our quest for historical details and truth.
I am the proud owner of a nice SS dagger that, as I learned a bit later, was made in Spain in the 50's :lol:
I also keep in my little museum a superb 50 USD banknotes that is a bloody fake :cry:
Not to mention the denialist documents that I saved on my hard disk, just to fight them better.
So, your book has some value whatsoever.
Keep it.

Back to serious stuff, there were, as far as I know, NO American Waffen SS volunteers.
Few native Germans living in the USA before WW2, maybe, but that's all.
Regards
Daniel

walterkaschner
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Post by walterkaschner » 16 Oct 2005 19:40

Daniel Laurent wrote:
du Vair has never been a Waffen SS and, if born in the USA, has never been an American citizen, but a French citizen.
Please excuse an old pedant and whilom lawyer from wandering off topic by pointing out that under US law anyone born within the territorial boundaries of the US is automatically a US citizen, regardless of the citizenship of his/her parents. In this regard our law of citizenship at birth is quite different than that of many other countries, where the citizenship of the parents, rather than the place of birth, is determinative. If I recall correctly (and if the French law in this regard has not changed over the past several decades), a child born outside of metropolitan France of at least one French parent is a French citizen by birth, although a child born within metropolitan France of non-French parents does not automatically acquire French citizenship (although can obtain it under certain conditions at the age of 18). Thus M. du Vair, if born in the US with at least one French parent, would have had dual citizenship at birth.

This difference created serious problems for US male citizens of German heritage who happened to be in Germany when war between the two countries was declared, or who happened to be caught up in German draft laws and conscripted into the German armed forces.

Regards, Kaschner

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Daniel Laurent
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Post by Daniel Laurent » 17 Oct 2005 05:02

Hi, old pedant and whilom but nevertheless interesting lawyer :lol:

Interesting. So du Vair "could" have been a US citizen.
But he is from an old French aristocrat family, was a French patriot himself and, as far as I know, kept only his French citizenship when back to France.

Moreover, I believe that it is very difficult to have a double nationality in France. The few rare cases I know are people who had a parent not French but from a European country (I may be wrong on that, please check, )

Concerning the French laws regarding nationality, you are correct and it's still the same.

Regards
Daniel

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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 17 Oct 2005 23:24

Hi Walter:

What is the legal view in the United States of a person that qualifies for US citizenship but never officially applied for it? Is he/she still considered a citizen even if no paperwork was ever processed?

Regards,
Allen/

walterkaschner
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Post by walterkaschner » 18 Oct 2005 04:16

Hi Allen! I'm not an expert in this area - or indeed in almost any other area, but I'm pretty confident of the answer to your question. If you are born within the territorial limits of the US you are automatically a US citizen by birth and no formalities whatsoever are required to obtain such citizenship. This is true even if the birth occurs on an airplane flying over the US or on a ship within US territorial waters! Don't laugh - I've a dear Swedish-American friend who acquired her American citizen- ship in the former fashion (what was her mother thinking?!?!), and a former client who acquired hers in the latter. The same rule applies if you are born outside the US but of parents both of whom are US citizens. You are automatically a US citizen without the necessity of any further formalities.

Now of course when you apply for a US passport you have to furnish evidence of your citizenship - a birth certificate or something similar. My son was born in France, and to avoid potential future complications I obtained from the US Consulate a very official looking document testifying to his US citizenship - but that was only evidence of his citizenship; it did not convey citizenship because he already had it by being born of two US citizen parents.

Hope this is clear, regards, Kaschner

walterkaschner
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Post by walterkaschner » 18 Oct 2005 05:07

Daniel Laurent wrote:
Moreover, I believe that it is very difficult to have a double nationality in France. The few rare cases I know are people who had a parent not French but from a European country (I may be wrong on that, please check, )
Again, I find the temptation to stray from the topic irresistible, even though I have to confess to a lack of confidence in the state of my current knowledge of French law - not that I ever knew all that much. But my understanding is that the French attitude toward dual nationality has become much more relaxed and lenient over the past half-century than it was previously and that it now recognizes and tolerates (within certain limits) its citizens taking advantage of dual nationality. I have several French ex-patriate friends whose children were born here in the States and who thus acquired dual French-US nationality at birth. As I understand it, they have no problem with the authorities of either country in using their French passport to enter France and their US passport to enter the US - or proclaiming whichever citizenship it appears under the circumstances at the time to be most favorable. It's my understanding that at one time the French view was identical with the then prevailing US view - that if one holding dual citizenship took advantage of the benefits of one citizenship the other citizenship was automatically lost. I know that is no longer the case in the US and I understand that is no longer the case in France.

On the other hand, I do seem to recall that in the early 1960s dual nationality was perceived as a serious problem within the European Community, and that around 1963 there was a Convention signed (but I can't recall if ratified) by the various Community members which in effect purported to abolish dual nationality if acquired by marriage. But even there I think many of the member States have backed away from that principle.

Surely some Forum member is out there who has a firmer grasp of the current situation than I do, and as my children often remind me "Papa, you've already told us more than you know!"

Regards, Kaschner

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Post by Jacky Kingsley » 18 Oct 2005 20:38

Walterkaschner said

This difference created serious problems for US male citizens of German heritage who happened to be in Germany when war between the two countries was declared, or who happened to be caught up in German draft laws and conscripted into the German armed forces.

When the war started Germany called up the citizens in Germany but did they contact those in the US and ask them to fight for Germany or did some just volunteer?

Jacky

walterkaschner
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Post by walterkaschner » 18 Oct 2005 23:07

Jacky Kingsley wrote:Walterkaschner said

This difference created serious problems for US male citizens of German heritage who happened to be in Germany when war between the two countries was declared, or who happened to be caught up in German draft laws and conscripted into the German armed forces.

When the war started Germany called up the citizens in Germany but did they contact those in the US and ask them to fight for Germany or did some just volunteer?

Jacky
As far as I am aware, there was no concerted effort by Germany to recruit volunteers from American citizens of German heritage still living in the US who were, under German law, citizens of Germany because of their parentage. But there were a number of volunteers, particularly among those men with dual US/German citizenship who for one reason or another had moved to Germany before the war. If memory serves, most, if not all of the eight saboteurs who in 1942 were send to the US by the Abwehr to carry out "Operation Pastorius" were dual citizen volunteers.

The really tragic situation typically arose when a young American citizen of German parentage went back to Germany to visit or take up residence and was conscripted, more or less against his will, to serve in the German armed forces.

Regards, Kaschner

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