Aserbeidschanische Infanterie Bataillon 818

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kindzjal
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Aserbeidschanische Infanterie Bataillon 818

Post by kindzjal » 19 Jul 2008 16:24

I'm looking for all kind of info/picks about the 818 Azeri Bataillon ?
As far as I now it was formed in 1943 in the GG (Truppenübungsplatz Mitte Radom).
I'm interresting about their further fate, the commanders,etc.

Bestreg,
kindzjal

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clement
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Re: Aserbeidschanische Infanterie Bataillon 818

Post by clement » 19 Jul 2008 19:25

Salam Kindzjal
The holy Tessin does not give much infos about this Btl.
Tessin give names of most the Azeri Btl German commanders ,nothing about this Btl .And almost nothing about the Azeris “liaison officers” who really were in charge of those Btl.
From Tessin

Aserbeidschan. Infanterie-Bataillon 818

-Formed in Jedlnia( East-central Poland) in the summer of 1943
-June/july 1944 part of the Oberfeldkommandantur 372 (gen Hilmar Moser) – stationed someplace near Zamość (Eastern Poland)
-31/07-44 subordinated to the 17th infantry division, stationed someplace near Puławy (eastern Poland, in Lublin Province)but only one company on the front.
-Some time after 1. August 44 probably moved to a Koruck (Kommandeur rückwärtiges Armeegebiet , the commanding element of all units behind the frontline). subordinated to the 4th Panzer army.
-Jan 45 part of the 4th Panzer army, somewhere in the Schlesien (Silesia)

From other sources ,a part of this btl was in Warsaw on the 1st of August 44 with the Kampfgruppe Reinefarth
that participated in the Wola massacre, incorporated in the Ostmuselmanisches SS Regiment and given to Dirlewanger SS regiment.
No pics as far as I know from this Btl.
I already discussed with you about the many desertions that happened in the 818 in 1943.
Some members of the AHF forum ,Michi,Michalst and myself are still searching infos about this unit.
Lots of things to be discovered.
Best.
Clement

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kindzjal
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Re: Aserbeidschanische Infanterie Bataillon 818

Post by kindzjal » 19 Jul 2008 20:55

Salam,

Clement thanx for Your answer.

The reason why I've started this topic is because of the fact that there
is some new info about some Azeri volunteers.

As You wrote here : http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=129519
"The Kompaniechef Balakishiyev and the propagandists Gazhyev and Ifendiyev
with 95 Freiwilligen from the Btl. 818 left in 1943 their units and went on the
side of the local resistance in Poland. "

I've found this :

In this Polish book : Aleksandra Pietrzykowa "Region tarnowski w okresie okupacji hitlerowskiej - polityka okupanta i ruch oporu''. (1984) we can find some interrseting info about that event :

"Azerowie zbiegli z transportu do Włoch i w sile całej kompanii przeszli do 16 pp AK "Barbara", w regionie tarnowskim. Tworzyli tam osobna kompanię (nr 6) o nazwie "Azerbejdżan". Kompania przeszła do AK w pełnym umundurowaniu i uzbrojeniu, 96 ludzi z porucznikiem."

Eng.: The Azeris fled from a transport to Italy and joined the 16th Home Army Regiment (" Barbara") in the Tarnow region. They formed the 6th company (of this regiment) called "Azerbaijan". They joined the Home Army with their complete (German) uniforms and weapons, 96 man with their lieutenant. "

Here some other info (Polish) : http://www.melsztyn.pl/artykuly/jamna.htm

I think that those Azeris were from the 818th.

Bestreg.

kindzjal

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clement
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Re: Aserbeidschanische Infanterie Bataillon 818

Post by clement » 20 Jul 2008 11:13

My dear Kindzjal ,this is an amazing discovery.
The desertion of 818 soldiers is confirmed by Polish sources.
I have to translate the whole text.
Many thanks.
Clement

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Re: Aserbeidschanische Infanterie Bataillon 818

Post by michalst » 21 Jul 2008 08:01

Kindzjal you should also take a look at those two threads:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=117043
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=117218

and one from dws :

http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=117339

I'm beginning to believe that this story is not true because I haven't found any other sources than the ones Maclean used to confirm that the 818 bat was in Warsaw at that time. As clement wrote, just before the Warsaw Uprising it was stationed in Pulawy and then in Kozienice (there is a map in Hinzes book showing their location) - so hard to place this unit in Warsaw! It may have been transported through Warsaw or some subunits of it may have been there but its hard to confirm.

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Re: Aserbeidschanische Infanterie Bataillon 818

Post by clement » 21 Jul 2008 12:04

Hello Michalst ,Thanks for the Polish link
I agree with you about the presence of the 818 Btl in Warsaw.

We have the German via Tessin version .Not a word about 818 in Warsaw .

Romanko says in his book Мусульманские легионы во Второй мировой войне
В результате на последней из этих встреч, 4 января 1944 г., было принято решение сформировать 1-й Восточно-мусульманский полк СС (Ostmuselmanische SS-Regiment № 1). Позже полк должен был стать основой для создания в составе войск СС мусульманской дивизии под название «Новый Туркестан» ( «Neu-Turkistan»). Эта дивизия, как предполагал Гиммлер, должна была быть сформирована к концу 1944 г.
На этой же встрече было принято решение о расформировании следующих батальонов вермахта, личный состав которых должен был послужить основой для формирования нового полка: 782, 786, 790, 791-го туркестанских, 818-го азербайджанского и 831-го волжско-татарского. Однако это произошло не сразу, а за период с декабря 1943 по март 1944 г. [161] Кроме того, в это же время Майер-Мадер совершил ряд поездок по лагерям военнопленных, где призывал добровольцев-мусульман вступать в новый легион войск СС.
As a result, the latest of these meetings, on January 4, 1944, it was decided to form the Ostmuselmanische SS-Regiment No. 1 This division, as expected Himmler, was to be in place by the end of 1944 At the same meeting, it was decided to disband some Wehrmacht Btl, the personnel will serve as a basis for the formation of the new regiment : 782, 786, 790, 791 Turkestanis, 818 Azerbaijani and 831 Wolga Tatars.
Source :NARA. Microcopy T-354. Roll 161. Frames 3806724 through 3807091.

The very serious Roland Pfeiffer does not mention the 818
Es scheint bei den ersten Einsätzen ab dem5. August 1944 nicht beteiligt worden gewesen zu sein, denn die erste Erwähnung erfolgt in einer Gliederung der „Kampfgruppe Reinefarth“, SS-Gruppenführer und Generalleutnant der Waffen-SS und Polizei Heinz Reinefarth, Korpsgruppe von dem Bach, Ia, Tgb.Nr. 110/4/44 g. vom 20.8.1944, beim Angriff auf die Altstadt im Rahmen der „Gruppe Dirlewanger“ (Kampfstärke 19 Führer/ 1306 Unterführer und Mannschaften), wo neben dem SS-Sonderregiment Dirlewanger (ca 570 Mann) das diesem Regiment unterstellte Ostmuselmanisches SS-Regiment 1 (ohne III.; ca. 555 Mann) genannt ist.
In dieser Gruppe kämpften ebenso Teile des Aserbeidschanischen Infanterie-Bataillon I/111 (200 Mann) sowie das II. Btl.“Bergmann“ (ebenfalls Aserbeidschaner).
My question is :Was the 818 really disbanded or partially in August 1944.
Was he incorporated in the Ostmuselmanische SS-Regiment
There might be a misunderstanding.
If those 6 Btl :782, 786, 790, 791 Turkestanis, 818 Azerbaijani and 831 Wolga Tatars had been disbanded it makes almost 6000 men .
I personally think that it just existed on paper.
Then NO 818Aserb Btl in Warsaw.
Another thing ,Edward Abrahamian in an article “ Azeri "heroes" in the service of the Nazis”
wrote
В первые же дни Варшавского восстания «Бергман -2» по приказу генерал-лейтенанта Райнефарта действовала на одной из центральных улиц столицы Польши. Солдатам было приказано продвигаться по улице Лицманштетер, подавляя любое сопротивление и уничтожая все живое на своем пути. Улица вела в центр района «Воля». Согласно воспоминаниям оставшихся в живых польских жителей, солдаты группы «Дёнмек» и «Бергман -2», «хладнокровно расстреливали женщин и детей, выполняя приказы своих командиров на русском или тюркском языках».

In the first days of the Warsaw uprising "Bergman -2" on the orders of Lieutenant-General Reinefarth,acted on one of the central streets of the capital of Poland. Soldiers were ordered to move along the street Litsmanshteter, suppressing any resistance and destroying all life in its path. Street led to a district center "Wola". According to memories of the survivors of Polish citizens, the soldiers of the "Donmek"and "Bergman -2", "cold-bloodedly shot women and children, carrying out orders from their commanders on the Russian or Turkic languages
He also writes “ August 5, Azerbaijani soldiers and fighters of groups Dirlewanger and Kaminski Brigades brutally killed over 10 thousand civilians, mostly elderly, women and children.”
Uh Uh Uh !
No source at all in this long article
First: No Azeris in Kaminski brigade
Second :1/III and Bergman did participate in the killings for sure but they were not responsible for all the killings .
Do you know where this Litsmanshteter street is located
Best
Clement

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Re: Aserbeidschanische Infanterie Bataillon 818

Post by michalst » 21 Jul 2008 12:42

Hello Clement!
Wola is a district in Warsaw. Dirlewanger with about 4 Azeri/ostlegion battalions operated there and committed some crimes too. RONA (Kaminski) operated in the Ochota district, not the Wola district.

Some info about both massacres:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wola_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochota_massacre

Both articles seems to be mostly correct (although I found some minor mistakes).

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Re: Aserbeidschanische Infanterie Bataillon 818

Post by kindzjal » 21 Jul 2008 13:02

Czolem michalst,

Yes I've allready heard about those rumours before. Just as Clement writes it's very hard to proof if this actually happened. In my own opinion there were no soldiers of the 818th who took part in the fighting during the Uprising. However a friend of mine from Poland who is "digging" in the forest near of Nysa/Neisse (where during the war was Stalag 318) found there a part of a dogtag of the 818th Bataillon. See photo below :

Image

He found it on a place in the Stalag where the Polish Home Army soldiers (from Warsaw) were inprisoned after their surrender to the Germans.
He believes that one of the Home Army fighters who took part in the killing of the Azeris from the 818th, in Warsaw took this dogtag as a souvenier with him and later threw it away or lost it there....

http://www.odkrywca.pl/pokaz_watek.php?id=238471#239437

In my opinion this is not what happened. In Stalag 318 there were inprisoned tens of thousends of soviet soldiers, from who many joined the several "Ostlegionen". Maybe when the 96 soldiers of the 818th joined the Home Army in the Tarnow region, some other Azeris were punished by the Germans and sent back to Stalag 318 ?

But there is no 100% proof for that. There are still many things not known about the fate the 818th Bataillon, but who knows...?

Here's another interresting discussion about Azeri volunteers on the dws :

http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=118648

Bestreg,
kindzjal

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Re: Aserbeidschanische Infanterie Bataillon 818

Post by michalst » 21 Jul 2008 13:32

However a friend of mine from Poland who is "digging" in the forest near of Nysa/Neisse (where during the war was Stalag 318) found there a part of a dogtag of the 818th Bataillon.
hm...interesting..
As far as I know the 818 battalion wasn't part of Dirlewangers assault group. If they where in Warsaw, then they where there around the 1. august. Direlwangers group was transferred to Warsaw first on the 5/8.


http://www.odkrywca.pl/pokaz_watek.php?id=238471#239437
In my opinion this is not what happened. In Stalag 318 there were inprisoned tens of thousends of soviet soldiers, from who many joined the several "Ostlegionen". Maybe when the 96 soldiers of the 818th joined the Home Army in the Tarnow region, some other Azeris were punished by the Germans and sent back to Stalag 318 ?

But there is no 100% proof for that. There are still many things not known about the fate the 818th Bataillon, but who knows...?

Here's another interresting discussion about Azeri volunteers on the dws :

http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=118648
This dogtag may also have belonged to some of the Muslims you where writing about in your dws post?? the ones from the Dering's factory?

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Re: Aserbeidschanische Infanterie Bataillon 818

Post by kindzjal » 21 Jul 2008 20:21

The 818th wasn't part of Dirlewagners gang, but it's possible that some Azeris from the 818th were incorporated into their ranks.

After 10 times of reading the story I don't think that the Muslims from the Derings factory were part af a bigger combat group. I believe that those men could be Hiwis or members of the Organisation Todt.

Another theory (of my own) about the dogtag: There are indeed a few Azeris from the 818th in Warsaw at that time. Some Home Army fighter became (during the Uprising) close friends with a Azeri volunteer. Later the Azeri was killed and the Pole took his dogtag too send/give it to his friends or family ... at the end he came in the stalag where he lost the dogtag... hmm... it sounds like "sience fiction" but who knows ?

Bestreg,

kindzjal

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Re: Aserbeidschanische Infanterie Bataillon 818

Post by michalst » 21 Jul 2008 22:16

The best thing is probably to try do trace the dog tag. Through Red Cross maybe or German archives? Any ideas?

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Re: Aserbeidschanische Infanterie Bataillon 818

Post by clement » 22 Jul 2008 11:00

Germany has a government agency for tracing soldiers of the former Wehrmacht called the Deutsche Dienststelle or WAST.One can trace a soldier by name, through them (for a fee), they should have an associated department that also identifies field graves when found- and this they'd have to do using the dogtags (Erkennungsmarke); so it would seem that they could answer a question about the former owner of a disc.

http://dd-wast.javabase.de/

The question about this 818 dogtag is : why only the upper half.

The tag was designed to be broken in two pieces when the soldier wearing it was killed. The lower half would be collected if at all possible, and given to the unit HQ for grave registration and notification. The upper half would remain with the body itself. Initially, all German units of Kompanie size were required to maintain complete lists of all soldiers and their Erkennungsmarke. These lists would be updated as needed once a month with any additions and subtractions based on men lost as KIA, MIA, through transfers or sick leave, or that were gained through replacements and transfers or soldiers
returned from sick leave. This offical Kompanie listing was registerd with the German Armed Forces Information Office for Casualties and War Prisoners, and was kept as up-to-date as possible.

http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=55

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Re: Aserbeidschanische Infanterie Bataillon 818

Post by kindzjal » 22 Jul 2008 22:02

I am afraid this won't work ! I did some research before at the WAST about some ancestors of my own (from the Wehrmacht). They will help You if You give them a NAME, but if You give them an ID NUMBER from a dogtag, they start asking questions... Please read this german article :

http://www.vksvg.eu/berichte/handelmite ... arken.html

It's a serious problem and the Germans (WAST and the VKSVG) are trying too fight it.
Anyway I will ask the VKSVG people if there is a manner to solve our "problem".

Bestreg,
kindzjal

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Re: Aserbeidschanische Infanterie Bataillon 818

Post by clement » 04 Aug 2008 22:28

While reading again the Von Mende archives I have found this .
Die Feld Btl 817 818 819 kampften zuerat in
Weissruthenien (Belarus) dann bei: Reichenbach
(now Dzierżoniów southwestern Poland.)
Bei Lviv (western Ukraine)und
Puławy ( eastern Poland)
Hier wurden sie nach heftiger gegenwehr unter schweren Verlusten von der übermacht der roten armee überrannt.

Best
Clement

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Re: Aserbeidschanische Infanterie Bataillon 818

Post by Hadi » 05 Sep 2011 15:50

Hello Kindzjal and Clement,

I'v looking for the person who could be in the Bataillon 818 or 111 (Abver).

I've read some your comments and found them familiar to me. Because the person whom I know told a little bit about this - he has been in the Warsaw and Italy - Triest.

Could you please help me with this issue? actually I t6ry to find the proper archive place where this information could be.

By the way - the person that I'v talking about died alredy 91 years in Baku. But I just need to find some information about him.

Thank you,
Hadi

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