Chetnik volunteers at Waffen SS side (info-pictures?)

[PhD about Italian Waffen SS]

I knew from a volunteer of the 4th SS Panzer Grenadier Division-Polizei that there were some Chetnik troops fighting at their side. He described these soldiers as men with long beards. I will appreciate the help to find some info about these soldiers and some pictures of those allied with the Germans. Thanks

[PhD about Italian Waffen SS]

Chetnik leader
General Draža Mihajlović

[Jan-Hendrik]

There was a Serbisches Freiwilligen-Korps that was finally transfered to the Waffen-SS, see these documents from the Org.Abt./Gen.Stab.d.H.:

0635AHFJPG.JPG (136.66 KiB) Viewed 9485 times

0636AHF.JPG (95.83 KiB) Viewed 9485 times

Jan-Hendrik

[PhD about Italian Waffen SS]

There was a Serbisches Freiwilligen-Korps that was finally transfered to the Waffen-SS, see these documents from the Org.Abt./Gen.Stab.d.H.:

0635AHFJPG.JPG

0636AHF.JPG

Jan-Hendrik

Hi Jan,
thanks for your message! It's an important info. The volunteer described these soldiers as men with long beards. Do you think it's possible in the Waffen SS or in the previous Serbisches Freiwilligen-Korps? I am trying to find images to show at this volunteer. He says that they were dressed in black.
Thanks
Nick

[Phil Don]

Hi

Many pics of the Serbische Freiwilligen Korps in the forum. They were not chetnik with long hairs and beards but short hairs like soldiers.

Phil D.

[Rob - wssob2]

The Serbian Volunteer Corps was military force of the German-controlled puppet state of Serbia formed in 1941. It may have been formed in part due to SS-RSHA (Reich Central Security Office) Dr. Kaltenbrunner's efforts to create more pro-German indigenous forces in the Balkans to fill the vacuum left by the wavering Bulgarians. The Serbian Volunteer Corps fought primarily against Tito's partisans. Some accounts state that the German Army transferred the corps to the Waffen-SS in late 1944, but it is unclear if this was just a administrative change rather than a tactical/operational change, or even if this transfer occurred. (although the Org.Abt./Gen.Stab.d.H document recently posted is interesting evidence)

According to historian Relja Knezevic, the reason that some authors consider the SVC a part of the SS is due to the fact that a former "ljoticevac" (meaning: member of SVC) named Strahinja Janjic formed something that was called Serbian Volunteer Corps of the SS. It was, however, little more than a "group of a few thugs". Janjic's idea was to form a Serbian division for the eastern front (because the SVC did not want to go) but he was unsuccessful. The Serbian Volunteer Corps of the SS held (operated from?) a prison in Belgrade where they tortured people, often their former comrades from the SVC.

Ultimately, it is unclear if the Serbisches-Freiwilligen Korps was officially part of the Waffen-SS. Kurt Mehner's comprehensive work based on surviving SS records, Die Waffen-SS und Polizei: 1939-45 does not list the unit on any SS-FHA order of battle. It is quite possible that the SS-RSHA formed and cultivated the unit independent of military channels.

[Marcus]

Forum member Larry D has written an article about that unit that you can find at http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=90

/Marcus

[PhD about Italian Waffen SS]

Hi

Many pics of the Serbische Freiwilligen Korps in the forum. They were not chetnik with long hairs and beards but short hairs like soldiers.

Phil D.

Hi Phil,
that's the problem! I told to the volunteer of the Serbische Freiwilligen Korps but he says that these soldiers with long bears were not wearing uniform he saw before. So, I am quite sure that they were not Serbische Freiwilligen Korps. Black dress and long bears are not compatible with the Serbische unit. They were moving by train and some airplanes started to bom the train. They had to stop (the train was broken) and they received the help of these black bears soldiers. Then they were attacked by partisans and these black bears soldiers were fighting together with them to defeat the partisans. That's all. The problem is to identify these unit.

[WW2CroatianNewsreel]

There was a Serbisches Freiwilligen-Korps that was finally transfered to the Waffen-SS, see these documents from the Org.Abt./Gen.Stab.d.H.:

0635AHFJPG.JPG

0636AHF.JPG

Jan-Hendrik

These documents are fallacies!!

First, where is the seal?

Such an important document should have a seal on the end of the "report" like this Waffen SS document:

[Jan-Hendrik]

These documents are fallacies!!

B...sh...t

These are internal documents of the Organisationsabteilung des Generalstabs des Heeres, not documents handed out to th ordinary soldiers :roll:

You find these records at NARA Washington with the prefix T78

Jan-Hendrik

[Ivan Ž.]

We had a very long & heavy discussion about Serbian SS & SDK here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... =strahinja

The conclusion was the same as Larry D. wrote in his article:

It is important to point out at this time that the S.F.K. 's relationship with the Waffen-SS was consumated officially, but never organically. The troops never wore the uniform of the Waffen-SS, and it is doubtful whether the relationship ever went beyond the simple exchange of a limited amount of paperwork. The S.F.K. 's situation was quite similar to that of the XV. Kosaken-Kavallerie-Korps, which was also taken into the Waffen-SS at about the same time.

(I'm glad Larry also mentioned Cossacks there, good comparison)

But let's return to the original question:

I knew from a volunteer of the 4th SS Panzer Grenadier Division-Polizei that there were some Chetnik troops fighting at their side. He described these soldiers as men with long beards. I will appreciate the help to find some info about these soldiers and some pictures of those allied with the Germans. Thanks

The man said that these troops (obviously chetniks) were fighting on their side, but not in their unit; so it's not another SS unit, but simply some chetnik allies; it should be checked which chetnik unit was around the same place at the same time as 4th SS division. Maybe this topic could be also helpful? http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... yugoslavia (not sure if we mentioned then where exactly 4th SS fought in YU), but I believe Rob could help with this issue quickly, if not anyone else. As for the chetnik unit org., unfortunately the "best" researcher is M. Samardzic, but I don't think he ever did (or will) confirm open collaboration of DM's chetniks with Germans.

There are quite a few photos of chetniks with Germans (as allies), mostly unidentified units, but I've never seen them with the 4th SS div. Only with the "local" 13th, I believe.


For those who don't understand the collaboration in Serbia during WWII, here's the main "plot":

1) People's Liberation Army (partisans/communists); fought against Axis forces; shortly allies with DM's chetniks, soon afterwards fought against them and the old regime (monarchy); at one point they were also prepared to collaborate with Germans and fight against the Allies (which supported DM's chetniks at the time and it was expected that they'll land in Yug.), but this never happened
2) Yugoslav Army in Fatherland (Draza Mihailovic's chetniks/monarchists); fought against partisans (as mentioned above, they were allies for a short period) and against the Axis forces; later often collaborated with Axis to fight against partisans (but at the same time they also saved Allied pilots, which landed in Yug.); note: even when collaborating with Axis, they still supported their King in exile (who was in England at the time, with W. Churchill); note 2: I'm skipping Chetniks of other regions of ex-Yugoslavia in this text
3) Kosta Pecanac's chetniks: fought side by side with Germans, against DM's chetniks & partisans; DM ordered his execution; although he was a German ally, it's interesting that there are photos where Germans are searching his pockets, as if he was some ordinary criminal; his men also supported the King
4) Serbian Volunteers (Ljotic's men); German allies, fought against partisans and DM's chetniks, at the end of war allies with the same DM's chetniks; they also supported King and were in the constant contact with him (although he was with the Allies and they were with the Axis)
5) Serbian State Guard (Nedic's men); allies with Germans, but often secretly supported and helped DM's chetniks (in their fight against Germans - and partisans, of course)

...so there definitely wasn't a black & white situation; everyone were friends & foes at some point. It was very hard to choose sides at the time; one had to be really smart to decide whether to kill German soldiers, which, because of the reprisals would mean kill his own people (50 civillians were killed for each wounded German and 100 for each killed), or not to kill Germans, which would most often mean collaborate with them and then again kill your own people (partisans, or chetniks). I don't think young people at the time had a chance to stay neutral...

Hopefully this won't lead to another long "who was right/who was wrong" discussion, I think my thoughts on that period are most objective. Sad times, what can we do...

Ivan

[PhD about Italian Waffen SS]

We had a very long & heavy discussion about Serbian SS & SDK here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... =strahinja

The conclusion was the same as Larry D. wrote in his article:

It is important to point out at this time that the S.F.K. 's relationship with the Waffen-SS was consumated officially, but never organically. The troops never wore the uniform of the Waffen-SS, and it is doubtful whether the relationship ever went beyond the simple exchange of a limited amount of paperwork. The S.F.K. 's situation was quite similar to that of the XV. Kosaken-Kavallerie-Korps, which was also taken into the Waffen-SS at about the same time.

(I'm glad Larry also mentioned Cossacks there, good comparison)

But let's return to the original question:

I knew from a volunteer of the 4th SS Panzer Grenadier Division-Polizei that there were some Chetnik troops fighting at their side. He described these soldiers as men with long beards. I will appreciate the help to find some info about these soldiers and some pictures of those allied with the Germans. Thanks

The man said that these troops (obviously chetniks) were fighting on their side, but not in their unit; so it's not another SS unit, but simply some chetnik allies; it should be checked which chetnik unit was around the same place at the same time as 4th SS division. Maybe this topic could be also helpful? http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... yugoslavia (not sure if we mentioned then where exactly 4th SS fought in YU), but I believe Rob could help with this issue quickly, if not anyone else. As for the chetnik unit org., unfortunately the "best" researcher is M. Samardzic, but I don't think he ever did (or will) confirm open collaboration of DM's chetniks with Germans.

There are quite a few photos of chetniks with Germans (as allies), mostly unidentified units, but I've never seen them with the 4th SS div. Only with the "local" 13th, I believe.


For those who don't understand the collaboration in Serbia during WWII, here's the main "plot":

1) People's Liberation Army (partisans/communists); fought against Axis forces; shortly allies with DM's chetniks, soon afterwards fought against them and the old regime (monarchy); at one point they were also prepared to collaborate with Germans and fight against the Allies (which supported DM's chetniks at the time and it was expected that they'll land in Yug.), but this never happened
2) Yugoslav Army in Fatherland (Draza Mihailovic's chetniks/monarchists); fought against partisans (as mentioned above, they were allies for a short period) and against the Axis forces; later often collaborated with Axis to fight against partisans (but at the same time they also saved Allied pilots, which landed in Yug.); note: even when collaborating with Axis, they still supported their King in exile (who was in England at the time, with W. Churchill); note 2: I'm skipping Chetniks of other regions of ex-Yugoslavia in this text
3) Kosta Pecanac's chetniks: fought side by side with Germans, against DM's chetniks & partisans; DM ordered his execution; although he was a German ally, it's interesting that there are photos where Germans are searching his pockets, as if he was some ordinary criminal; his men also supported the King
4) Serbian Volunteers (Ljotic's men); German allies, fought against partisans and DM's chetniks, at the end of war allies with the same DM's chetniks; they also supported King and were in the constant contact with him (although he was with the Allies)
5) Serbian State Guard (Nedic's men); allies with Germans, but often secretly supported and helped DM's chetniks (in their fight against Germans - and partisans, of course)

...so there definitely wasn't a black & white situation; everyone were friends & foes at some point. It was very hard to choose sides at the time; one had to be really smart to decide whether to kill German soldiers, which, because of the reprisals would mean kill his own people (50 civillians were killed for each wounded German and 100 for each killed), or not to kill Germans, which would most often mean collaborate with them and then again kill your own people (partisans, or chetniks). I don't think young people at the time had a chance to stay neutral...

Hopefully this won't lead to another long "who was right/who was wrong" discussion, I think my thoughts on that period are most objective. Sad times, what can we do...

Ivan

Hi Ivan,
great help! Intricate situation. Maybe I'll never be able to identify who those Chetnick were, but I'll check the private diary of this volunteer and try to understand the area where he met them. Knowing the area maybe it will be easier, even if written name of the places are always written in a wrong way and not easy to reconduct to the right name. May be the Chetnick unit was the same collaborating with the 13th. Some picture to show him could help. I would be able to show him and stimulate his remembering. Where can I find those pictures? I know for sure that he didi not speak to them because they were not sharing a common language.I will check better but it seems to me that they were near to Albania (not sur I'll write on Monday the area). Ivan my Phd is about Social History (reasons to enlist etc) and I think that you wrote a right comment: that years were complicated and it's not right to judge what persons decide, but we can study the elements that brought at decision makng.

[Ivan Ž.]

May be the Chetnick unit was the same collaborating with the 13th. Some picture to show him could help. I would be able to show him and stimulate his remembering. Where can I find those pictures?

Photos I'm refering to are taken in the Majevica region (Bosnia/Herz.) and they all show only chetnik commanders with members of Waffen-SS; first is a series of photos showing chetnik comm. Stevan Damjanovic with soldiers of an unidentified Waffen-SS unit - possibly "Handschar": http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... novi%C4%87
Second is a photo of chetnik commander Radivoje Kerovic, posing with "Handschar" commander Desiderius Hampel, published in "Himmler's Bosnian Division", by George Lepre (also moderator here). I can't post the photo here, you will have to ask the author himself for help...

Ivan

[PhD about Italian Waffen SS]

May be the Chetnick unit was the same collaborating with the 13th. Some picture to show him could help. I would be able to show him and stimulate his remembering. Where can I find those pictures?

Photos I'm refering to are taken in the Majevica region (Bosnia/Herz.) and they all show only chetnik commanders with members of Waffen-SS; first is a series of photos showing chetnik comm. Stevan Damjanovic with soldiers of an unidentified Waffen-SS unit - possibly "Handschar": http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... novi%C4%87
Second is a photo of chetnik commander Radivoje Kerovic, posing with "Handschar" commander Desiderius Hampel, published in "Himmler's Bosnian Division", by George Lepre (also moderator here). I can't post the photo here, you will have to ask the author himself for help...

Ivan

Great! I will show the picture to the volunteer. I think he will be able to say surely if they were Chetnick. Then I will read again the diary to find the Place.
I hope Lepre, reading this message, would like to help me.
I know there is an Italian researcher (Claudio Mutti) who studied the 13th and I can try to contact him.
May be if I'll find the place I could contact local archives.
Thanks
Nick

[PhD about Italian Waffen SS]

Here an Interesting picture Chetnik of Dinaric Division with 7ª SS-Gebirgsdivision "Prinz Eugen"