Why did foreigners join the Waffen-SS?

[Jampol]

[Split from "Why the Waffen-SS"]

My grandfather was a member of the NSKK, Flemisch Legion, 6.SS-Sturmbrigade "Langemarck" and the 27.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division "Langemarck" (these were formations formed with Flemisch soldiers)
He and most of his comrades fought against Russia because the church told them to be afraid of the communism terror who could occupy whole Europe.
The only reason why he and his comrades entered these units was because it was the only opportunity to fight against Russia.

They fought for their country, their comrades, theirselfs...

I believe these were the most reasons why foreign Waffen-SS soldiers fought in WWII.

Look into your historybooks and tell me why even the USA turned against Russia after WWII. (Korea, Vietnam, Cold War,...)

Greetings

[Rob - wssob2]

The only reason why he and his comrades entered these units was because it was the only opportunity to fight against Russia.

Well, I'd say it's a matter of debate how much the USSR was a direct threat to the Netherlands.

However, your grandfather did fight against the "Judeo-Bolshevist menace" in which the evils of world Communism were conflated with the evils of "World Judaism".

They fought for their country, their comrades, theirselfs...

They did not.

The Netherlands were an occupied nation - brutally, horribly occupied by the Nazis.

Men like Anton Mussert and your grandfather eagerly collaborated with an enemy that was starving the Dutch people to death in 1944-45.

I believe these were the most reasons why foreign Waffen-SS soldiers fought in WWII

You are wrong. There are plenty of resources that document why Dutchmen joined the Waffen-SS:

From Leningrad to Berlin

A European Anabasis

The Waffen-SS by George Stein.

among many others

Look into your historybooks and tell me why even the USA turned against Russia after WWII. (Korea, Vietnam, Cold War,...)

Maybe you'd better start reading some of your own history books.

My tolerance of Waffen-SS hagiography has grown pretty thin over the years on AHF.

[Panzermahn]

You are wrong. There are plenty of resources that document why Dutchmen joined the Waffen-SS:

From Leningrad to Berlin

A European Anabasis

The Waffen-SS by George Stein.

among many others

An European Anabasis: Western European volunteers in the Waffen SS 1941-45 is a dissertation by one Kenneth W. Estes (who lived in Spain if I am not mistaken) is full of mistakes and it seems that the author did not even know how to spell some of the names of the volunteer personalities in his dissertation. This dissertation was written around 2004-2005 but after more than 7 years, no publication of it into a book was forthcoming (perhaps the author realised he needs to do more research before continuing).

The author tried to tackle a very complex and complicated subject regarding the motivation of Western European volunteers (nevertheless, the author did not include volunteers from Italy, Spain, Switzerland and Sweden despite the obvious title of "Western European volunteers", focusing only on volunteers from France, Belgium, Netherlands, Danish and Flanders) but ends up producing a biased research and the author seemed very contented when he was able to find a couple of criminals who enlisted in Freikorps Danmark and other foreign volunteer units in the Waffen SS.

If Patrick Agte is considered extreme with regards to his publications on Waffen SS, the same could be said about Kenneth W. Estes but at the opposite end of the spectrum.

My tolerance of Waffen-SS hagiography has grown pretty thin over the years on AHF.

Because in American education curriculum for junior to senior high schools, the motivation of European volunteers to fight communism and Bolshevism in WW2 are never taught in history books as compare to Pearl Harbour and Holocaust history which were pretty common ones

[Harro]

I believe these were the most reasons why foreign Waffen-SS soldiers fought in WWII.

You believe or you want to believe? There were thousands of foreign Waffen-SS soldiers with dozens of reasons to join that organization, it is impossible to pin-prick the motives of your grandfather - or what you believe or want to believe to have been his motives - on all Flemish volunteers or even most of them, let alone on volunteers from other countries. For example, there's an excellent book about the Nederlandse SS "Voorman" Feldmeijer which gives a clear view on the views of Feldmeijer and his comrades: the Nederlandse SS was a group of ardent nazis who volunteered for the Eastern Front because of their national-socialist zeal and their goal to become Germans, they rejected the "Dietse" ideal as their ideal was the nazification of the Netherlands as part of Greater Germany.

[Jampol]

Dear Rob,

Flanders or Flandern is a part of Belgium not the Netherlands.

To respond on your words: "Well, I'd say it's a matter of debate how much the USSR was a direct threat to the Netherlands."
For me its the same debate how much Cuba was a direct threat to the USA in the 50's & 60's...
In those days the people believed Church, King, President, etc. Why ? I don't know but they did.

To respond to your further statements: yes my grandfather collaborated with "the enemy", war is terrible in all ways but people starving to death ? My grandparents on my mothers side were farmers during WWII and they payed taxes to the Germans but they didn't starved to death, neither did anyone in our village... I sat hours and hours around the table with my grandparents talking about the waryears but they never sayed about something like this.

Concerning my historybooks: I have interviewed former Waffen-SS veterans, DRK-veterans, reading books and visited historical places in France, Germany and Belgium.

Now I have some questions for you:
You accuse the Germans and their collaborators for what they did during WWII with their own people and other nations.
In the USA, they imprisoned Japanese people (who already lived for years in the USA) after the attack on Pearl Harbor in concentrationcamps. Why ? Spies ? Every man, woman and child ? I don't think so because some of them served in the Pacific in the ranks of the US Marines.
During the Cuba thing (Bay of Pigs in 1961), if you lived back then as an American citizen and you had the guts to yell "I'm a Communist", what do you think what would happend ? The same way like Malcolm X ?
In the 50's, 60's,... their was discrimination between the whites and blacks, indians,... Do you know that in those years a black person couldn't sit on the bus, bars and restaurants were off limits, and what about the KKK ? or the votingrights ?
And what about Korea and Vietnam ? Napalm on villages and bombing city's in a country more then thousand miles away from home. For what ? I believe something to do with Communism, Russia, China ?

Another American responded me some years ago the same way you did and I gave him also some things to think about it.
The next thing he wrote me was "war is evil and both sides made mistakes".

Don't judge about people before you know them and don't believe every word in the papers or books but talk to the veterans, people who lived in those days.
Everybody back then had his reasons, American, Englisch, German, Flemisch, Dutch,... and in the eyes off every person his choice was the best choice to made at that moment.

Greetings

[Harro]

It's the old tiresome "but they were bad too" argument again. This topic is about foreigners in the Waffen-SS, not about the US, Cuba or communists. The nazi regime was not less evil just because of what other nations did or do. Your grandfather might have had other reasons, with anti-communist and Flemish seperatist motives, subject to group pressure and deceived by politicians and the church, but in the end he did join a criminal organization that was instrumental to an evil regime that not only waged a war of aggression and combined it with genocide on a massive scale, it attacked and occupied his and your home country, and surpressed and murdered his own and your compatriots. For example: they deported 25,631 Belgian Jews and 351 Belgian Roma of which only 1,244 survived the war. I do not see how this is justified by a real or imagined "communist threat" so the least you could do is admit that collaborating with the nazi's was wrong before you look for the individual reasons why foreigners joined the Waffen-SS.

[Marcus]

Let's stay on topic, that is why did foreigners serve in the Waffen-SS. We have other threads for discussions on for example the Cold War or the treatment of Japanese-Americans during the war.

/Marcus

[Wim]

1) The argument that the Waffen ss was a criminal organisation is the same fail argument again as the argument about the Allies 'they were bad too'.

We always look history with the eyes now but we have to see it with the eyes then.

After the war the Waffen SS was convicted as a criminal organisation by the winning allied standards (just a fact nothing more).
So people who joined before that they were defeated and trailed they did not feel they joined a criminal orgaisation.
If they had won they would be the best of the best.

2) Wy did foreigners join the Waffen SS?

For the very simple reason that from 1933 a lot of foreigners saw the achievement of Germany and they felt like we want this to. Wenn they counquered Europe in every state there were people who wanted this kind of goverment for them and the Nazis saw them as allies.

Himmler saw an opportunity to gain mutch power because he was building his Waffen SS as a counterweight to the Wehrmacht. So he was eager to recruut foreigners to there cause to expand his power.
So the foreigners didn't choose Himmler did.
2 exceptions Legione Wallonne was a heer unit untill 1943 and the Spanisch Blaue Division and ofcourse some smaller units.

The Flemisch:

They were hoping to get an independant state that is why the leaders were convinced that they had to join the fight against bolsjevism. If they didn't joined this fight they believed that at the endzieg they would have nothing to ask.
In 1943 the VNV party saw that this was never ever to happen and they stopped the active recruting for the Waffen SS, this was now taken over by the more Germanising DeVlag.

The Waffen SS was the elite fighting force of Germany.
Would you rather be a unit like any other or being a Elite Unit?


Wim

[Harro]

1) The argument that the Waffen ss was a criminal organisation is the same fail argument again as the argument about the Allies 'they were bad too'.

Yet the topic is "why did foreigners join the Waffen-SS" so contrary to the "they were bad too" argument, the fact that the Waffen-SS was a criminal organization that was instrumental to an evil regime that not only waged a war of aggression and combined it with genocide on a massive scale, it attacked and occupied his and your home country, and surpressed and murdered his own and your compatriots, is on-topic.

We always look history with the eyes now but we have to see it with the eyes then.

Even though the full horror of the nazi regime became clear after the war, can you name one Flemish volunteer who completely overlooked the fact that Germany had attacked and occupied Belgium and failed to notice that the SS was instrumental in the suppresion and murder of his compatriots?

After the war the Waffen SS was convicted as a criminal organisation by the winning allied standards (just a fact nothing more).

And a fact it is.

So people who joined before that they were defeated and trailed they did not feel they joined a criminal orgaisation. If they had won they would be the best of the best.

See the above question about the occupation and suppression of Belgium and the murder of thousands of Belgians, including close to 20,000 Jews.

2) Wy did foreigners join the Waffen SS? For the very simple reason that from 1933 a lot of foreigners saw the achievement of Germany and they felt like we want this to. Wenn they counquered Europe in every state there were people who wanted this kind of goverment for them and the Nazis saw them as allies.

I repeat that it's impossible apply such a motive for joining the Waffen-SS as a blanket statement. There were certainly thousands of volunteers who joined for the reasons you give - my example about the Dutch SS comes from the same category - but there were also thousands of volunteers who had completely different reasons. This is clearly illustrated by TS "jampol" who states that his Belgian grandfather joined the Waffen-SS "because it was the only opportunity to fight against Russia".

Himmler saw an opportunity to gain mutch power because he was building his Waffen SS as a counterweight to the Wehrmacht. So he was eager to recruut foreigners to there cause to expand his power.
So the foreigners didn't choose Himmler did.

That's actually an interesting twist to take away personal responsibility, but you know as well as I do that although a considerable number of men ended up in the Waffen-SS despite signing for "the Army" there was also a considerable number of volunteers that replied to the SS propaganda and specifically signed for the Waffen-SS. Himmler allowed them to serve but it was their own personal choice to sign up for the SS.

The Flemisch: They were hoping to get an independant state that is why the leaders were convinced that they had to join the fight against bolsjevism. If they didn't joined this fight they believed that at the endzieg they would have nothing to ask. In 1943 the VNV party saw that this was never ever to happen and they stopped the active recruting for the Waffen SS, this was now taken over by the more Germanising DeVlag.

Which is a sound yet partial answer to the question why Flemish men volunteered for the Waffen-SS.

[Arto O]

Hi,
In question of Finnish: The goverment and men themselves wanted to get men trained with new Blitzkrieg tactics. The winterwar was over but everybody saw a new conflict coming with Soviet Union. Now Finland was never occupied/invaded by German, so these men could not be considered as traitors. The personal motives of men varied from seek of adventures, being part victorious German army, anti-bolseviques and anti-russians. At my knowledge there were no fascist, Finnish goverment preferred to keep the unit as apolitical. The goverment preferred that they would serve in Wehrmacht, but finally they served with Waffen-SS.
with best regards
Arto

[Wim]

Maybe as a Dutchman you can't understand it but Belguim is not the country of Flemisch nationalist.
belgium occupies Flanders. So a belgian nationalist is the enemy.

The German invasion was not really a bad thing (The enemy of my enemy is my friend).
With every war eggs will brake, if this is wat it takes so be it.

You must know that wenn Germany invaded Belgium a lot of Flemisch nationalist were arrested and deported, also with WWI in mind all young men age 16 were summond to go to France (they would be reservist in a believed trenchwar like WWI). They were left allone without any food, or organisation .... Also the murder on a Flemisch foreman Joris Van Severen by drunk French soldiers at Abbeville (he was an elected member of the Belgian parlement). Normally men who are elected are having diplomatic immunity but no the Belgian goverment arrested him and deported to France with the known result. So the Flemisch nationalist have had all the proof that the Belgian government would want to get rid of them one way or another.

I can't speak for every individual who joined the Waffen SS (nobody can) so i can't give you the full answer on the question. Yes there are recruted on false conditions and yes true Nazis joined and anti-bolscheviks joined .....
We both probably are half right.

I am sorry but according to me i don't take away the personal responsabillity by stating that Himmler wanted that all foreigners became Waffen SS. If someone chooses voluntarly it is their personal responsabillity (he could also have joined the Kriegsmarine, OT, NSKK). But if you wanted to join the elite of the elite.... Also the recrutment campains for the Waffen SS was more widespread than for other organisations so they got the most recruuts.

Why are the Dutch Korps Mariniers elite soldiers and being one is a great honour. This is the same for the Waffen SS in those days.

[Harro]

Maybe as a Dutchman you can't understand it but Belguim is not the country of Flemisch nationalist.
belgium occupies Flanders. So a belgian nationalist is the enemy.

I fully understand the situation (avid follower of "de Zevende Dag" and other Flemish television programs, I do follow the news about NV-A and VB, etc.). Still, the nazi's also occupied Flanders and suppressed and murdered Flemish people and deported Jews from Flemish cities and villages. Your explanation suggests that they considered these people collateral damage for the Flemish cause and turned a blind eye for the greater good of an independant Flanders. This is also my view on the Flemish collaboration, but it does make me sick for it made the collaborists almost as bad as the actual nazi's and it contradicts the explanation of "jampol" that they only joined the Waffen-SS because the church asked them to fight communists.

[Harro]

Why are the Dutch Korps Mariniers elite soldiers and being one is a great honour. This is the same for the Waffen SS in those days.

Because the Dutch Korps Mariniers does not serve an evil regime that occupies, terrorizes and inflicts genocide on other countries. But the Dutch Korps Mariniers is off-topic.

[Wim]

Because the Dutch Korps Mariniers does not serve an evil regime that occupies, terrorizes and inflicts genocide on other countries. But the Dutch Korps Mariniers is off-topic.

No this is not off topic. I just wanted to tell you that you rather want to join a elite unit than a 3rd rang unit.

My next remark is way off topic but here is clearly an excample that you yourself have to be carefull what you are saying because the Indonesians will tell differently about the o so democratic and peacefull country the Netherlands is.

Your explanation suggests that they considered these people collateral damage for the Flemish cause and turned a blind eye for the greater good of an independant Flanders.

What about the collateral dammage in Afganistan? You don't have to like it or agree with it but it happens what can you do about it.
(All over Europe even Amerika, Great-Britain didn't want the Jews those days)

You still can't see with the eyes of then.

that they only joined the Waffen-SS because the church asked them to fight communists.

Yes this is o so true. Before the war they preached to fight the anti krist = the bolsjeviks. Why woudn't they go fight them when they had the chance to do it. The time of sitting at home was over, the time of doing something was there.

[Harro]

There are way to many contradictions in your arguments which makes it hard to follow.

As for the Dutch Marines: you do see the difference between joining a foreign army that occupies and terrorizes your own country and compatriots as you can witness all around you, as was the case with Belgium and/or Flanders and the Germans, as opposed to joining your own army to be shipped to the other end of the world to occupy and terrorize another nation and its citizen, as was the case with Dutch and the Dutch Marines in Asia, don't you? Comparing Flemish volunteers for the Waffen-SS with Dutch volunteers for the Dutch marines is like comparing apples and oranges.