Why did foreigners join the Waffen-SS?

[Harro]

Many Waffen-SS fanboys such as yourself (and this is easily established by looking at what you posted in various forums over the last decade or so) are so blinded by their own hatred against communism that they deliberately turn a primary reason into the only reason. You know very well that besides a majority that joined for anti-communist reasons, there was a whole range of other reasons why foreigners joined the Waffen-SS, including ardent nazism (A fact that you rarely mentioned in your postings about foreign Waffen SS units). All Waffen-SS formations you mention (which were, btw, all "multinational" since they all contained a mix of German and foreign personnel) had their fair share of members of foreign nazi and fascist parties, as well as members of other pro-nazi and/or pro-German groups.

[Svetlana Karlin]

My two cents from the Eastern Front viewpoint.

Although the Nazi recruitment propaganda heavily emphasized fighting against Judeo-Bolshevism, the motivations for joining Waffen-SS or any foreign legion ran a wide gamut. Based on the information I have either through my family history or from sources on life under the Nazi occupation, the possible reasons could be:

- Political opposition to the Stalin regime as a result of the persecutions in the 30's. I heard a story about a secret group of workers at a factory near Moscow who hatched a plan to cross the front in 1941 and join the German army. The plan never came to fruition since the factory was evacuated East together with all the employees. One of the conspirators was a relative of mine, an Ukrainian Cossack whose family had fled their village to avoid deportation to Siberia in the 30's. He was later drafted into the Red Army and, after seeing the aftermath of the Nazi occupation in Ukraine, was glad that the plot of joining the German forces didn't work out;

- Misguided hopes for achieving national independence, often paired with chauvinism and disregard for the human costs like the genocide of Jews; this was most apparent in the Baltics and Ukraine;

- Plain opportunism; siding with the winner in order to get access to the feeding hand and obtain a share of power. Pod Nemtsami (Under the Germans), a collection of documents and personal accounts edited by K.M. Aleksandrov, describes a situation in Nazi-occupied Polotsk, a town in Belarus, when most of the local Soviet bureaucracy ended up in the same comfortable administrative positions under the German rule. The German Ortskommandant was said to state that the bureaucrats hardly cared whom to serve. "It doesn't matter for them. They served Stalin, and they'll serve us [the Germans]." Same could be said for numerous Hiwis, Polizei, as well as recruits in various military formations;

- Conscription, especially in the Baltics. A Lithuanian relative of mine dodged the German conscription by enlisting for labor service in Germany. A similar situation is described in I had nowhere to go by Jonas Mekas, a Lithuanian, who avoided the conscription by volunteering for work in Germany;

- Hope to improve one's chances for survival. It is known that Nazis recruited among POWs, and many of the latter agreed to anything just to escape their dismal situation;

- Foreign units attracted all sorts of criminal and mercenary types, militant anti-Semites and sadists. In fact, the Germans had to disband some foreign units because of poor discipline and demoralization, like Kaminsky Brigade.

[Blix44]

My two cents from the Eastern Front viewpoint.

I double that.
With only one reservation: we should divide "motivation" as such in Western and Eastern Europe. In plain words, those Western volunteers from occupied countries were granted some choise: whether to join the "Crusade" or to stay at home, i.e. percent of those who volunteered purely because of ideas (here: anti-semitism, plain Nazism, whatever) is higher. Higher, than of those Eastern volunteers (or maybe "volunteers"?) from the occupied USSR territory. Collaboration (because of the nature of the Eastern occupation policy) was usually the only way to survive in the chaotic and evil environment.

Maybe an "idealistic" motivation for the collaboration in USSR is much more.. diluted? One could have been an ardent anti-communist, but maybe this motivation was frequently "heated" with the overall Eastern front situation (an example of Soviet POWs, who volunteered to serve)?

And of course, volunteers for the WSS were mostly Western Europeans (judging from the quantity of the legions formed). Their motivation is branched, but also could be divided into some catergories.
Oleg Romanko, Ukranian historian and a great specialist in Eastern collaboration, divides these men (Eastern collaborators) into three groups:
-Materialists - they wanted to improve their let's call it "personal situation"; approx. 40%
-Opportunists - they just had desided to join the winner; approx. 40%
-Idealists - everything is clear here; approx. 20%

I presume that, with some percentage correction, this scheme works for the Western volunteers also.

[Ustuf.33]

I presume that, with some percentage correction, this scheme works for the Western volunteers also.

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No, for Sturmbrigade Frankreich, between july 1943 and summer 1944, most part were idealist. other part
were materialist . But opportunist, very few at this moment of the war.

About LVF, materialist and opportunist were higher.

But , it is stupid to make this kind of study.

[Marcus]

A post on "The Unknown Eastern Front" by Rolf-Dieter Muller was split off into a new thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=194643

/Marcus

[Panzermahn]

Many Waffen-SS fanboys such as yourself (and this is easily established by looking at what you posted in various forums over the last decade or so) are so blinded by their own hatred against communism that they deliberately turn a primary reason into the only reason. You know very well that besides a majority that joined for anti-communist reasons, there was a whole range of other reasons why foreigners joined the Waffen-SS, including ardent nazism (A fact that you rarely mentioned in your postings about foreign Waffen SS units). All Waffen-SS formations you mention (which were, btw, all "multinational" since they all contained a mix of German and foreign personnel) had their fair share of members of foreign nazi and fascist parties, as well as members of other pro-nazi and/or pro-German groups.

Harro aka "Timo Worst"

What fandom are you talking about here? Of course there are some die-hard Fascist supporters who joined in accordance with their ideological motivations. No one is denying that. You're twisting the context when I said about primary (maybe you can take a look in the Dutch-English dictionary what "primary" means) reason why foreigners joined Waffen SS. I never said it is the only reason why foreigners volunteered for Waffen SS.

Yes, there are NSB supporters enlisting in the Legion Nederlande, Nasjonal Samling members in the Den Norske Legion/SS-Polizei Schikompanie Norge, SSS members in the Wiking division, DNSDAP members in the Freikorps Danmark, Rexists in the Wallonie Division, Action Francaise members in the Charlemagne Division. Nobody is denying that. That's the current political situation at that time. At that time those who are anti-communists are either patriotic nationalists, monarchists, conversatives, traditionists, syndicalists, phalangists, reactionaries, fascists as well as even ex-communists. If you studied the history of Fascism & National Socialism (Robert Paxton, Stanley G. Payne, Ernst Nolte etc.) you will observed that there are substantial difference between the former and latter but you talked about it as though both had no difference

Tell me, is every single Dutchmen (out of the approximate 50,000 Dutch volunteers) in the Waffen SS a member of NSB?

In fact, some of the Axis personalities (Jacques Doriot, Nicola Bombacci, Mussolini etc.) were actually communists/Bolsheviks at first but became anti-communists/anti-Bolsheviks later when they finally opened their eyes to the falsehood known as Communism which promised the world an utopian fantasy of true proletarian's paradise but in reality brought the brutal and endless cold nights of Siberian Elysium for those who were unfortunate enough to believe its lies.

[Harro]

What fandom are you talking about here? Of course there are some die-hard Fascist supporters who joined in accordance with their ideological motivations. No one is denying that.

Part of your denial is in the use of the word "some".

You're twisting the context when I said about primary (maybe you can take a look in the Dutch-English dictionary what "primary" means) reason why foreigners joined Waffen SS. I never said it is the only reason why foreigners volunteered for Waffen SS.

Did you look up "some" in your dictionary? What I mean is that you're deliberately trying to play down the political zeal of a considerable part of the foreign volunteers, just like you're trying to play down the differences between the Waffen-SS and the allied forces when you wrote:

No doubt the Waffen SS had its share of criminals and psychopaths just like any other army in the world at that time but one must remember the main reason why foreigners joined Waffen SS was to fight against the spectre of communist domination of all over Europe.

With such a comment you are (again) playing the "but they were bad too" card.

Yes, there are NSB supporters enlisting in the Legion Nederlande, Nasjonal Samling members in the Den Norske Legion/SS-Polizei Schikompanie Norge, SSS members in the Wiking division, DNSDAP members in the Freikorps Danmark, Rexists in the Wallonie Division, Action Francaise members in the Charlemagne Division. Nobody is denying that.

What's your fixation on the use of the phrase "nobody is denying that"? I never said you denied that in the first place, just that you have a history in this forum of playing down those motives by deliberately focusing on the anti-communist motives of the foreign volunteers.

That's the current political situation at that time. At that time those who are anti-communists are either patriotic nationalists, monarchists, conversatives, traditionists, syndicalists, phalangists, reactionaries, fascists as well as even ex-communists. If you studied the history of Fascism & National Socialism (Robert Paxton, Stanley G. Payne, Ernst Nolte etc.) you will observed that there are substantial difference between the former and latter but you talked about it as though both had no difference

See what I mean? There's your focus on anti-communism again.

Tell me, is every single Dutchmen (out of the approximate 50,000 Dutch volunteers) in the Waffen SS a member of NSB?

What did you not understand when I wrote that there was a whole range of reasons why foreigners joined the Waffen-SS, including ardent nazism? Perhaps you should read "De Voorman" by Bas Kromhout to get a grasp of the political motives of a considerable part of the Dutch volunteers. BTW, 50,000 Dutch volunteers in the Waffen-SS, make that 22,000 - 25,000 but since your image of the foreign volunteers parrots Steiner, I'm not surprised that you also parrot his inflated numbers.

In fact, some of the Axis personalities (Jacques Doriot, Nicola Bombacci, Mussolini etc.) were actually communists/Bolsheviks at first but became anti-communists/anti-Bolsheviks later when they finally opened their eyes to the falsehood known as Communism which promised the world an utopian fantasy of true proletarian's paradise but in reality brought the brutal and endless cold nights of Siberian Elysium for those who were unfortunate enough to believe its lies.

Your actually quite desperately proving me right about your own hatred against communism blinding you.

[Ivan Ž.]

we need to understand how was the times on those days and how is a mind of young man in his 20ies.

This is without a doubt my favorite comment in this topic.

I feel that a good psychologist (and even without too much knowledge of history) could provide much more answers in this topic, than a historian.

Come on, people. Remember the average student-protest. Most countries have them I believe. How many of those students actually cared for the cause - and how many wanted to simply protest against just about anything? Now, this may seem off-topic, but it's not, when you think about it. At the time there was a separate civil war in my country and region - communists vs. monarchists, or nationalists. Many will agree that it never ended and people are still debating about it, which side was right/wrong, good/bad. But in fact most youngsters (teens or in early 20s) did not even know clearly what or who they were fighting for. When they asked a young "monarchist" after the war why did he choose that side he replied: I love it when it blows! (referring to the sound of bombs, weapons, etc). And an average young human male is not much different in other countries, or was in different times. There were and always will be exceptions, but let's face it: most (and again: not all) of human males are way too immature at that age to be labelled as politically aware. Come on. Were you (older members)?

I must say that I always enjoy reading Rob's posts, perhaps I mentioned it before already, first of all because I know he knows what he's writting about (not saying that others don't!), but most of all because he always brings a much needed balance into topics like this one. However, no offense, Rob, you sometimes approach some topics/members with prejudices, which is naturally the result of your long experience, which I completely understand, but it doesn't help the discussion very much. No matter how much some of you guys disagree here, I've managed to find in every poster's text something valuable for this topic. I agree with Wim that most of the volunteers did not know or feel they were joining a criminal organisation, but Rob did make a good point with deportations, for example. It's only a question of how many people were in fact aware of the deportations. After the war most of the survivors (the nazi side) denied such knowledge, which is perhaps true - and perhaps it is not. We can't be sure because we must be aware that most of the "political veterans" (communists/fascists) could not allow themselves or were not allowed to tell "the whole truth and nothing but the truth"...

And finally (if anyone still has the will to read my long text) to fully get back on the topic: no one, unless I missed it, mentioned that many of the volunteers were not even volunteers! Remember that Otto Kumm tried to remove the word "Volunteer" from his division's description (Prinz Eugen) because many of his men were forced to join in. Also, there were even some to us perhaps ridiculous reasons for volunteering, such as - smart uniforms (George L., correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was you who mentioned it in your excellent Handschar-book). Sounds funny from today's point of view, but imagine a poor, nearly barefooted young peasant, from some godforsaken mountain who was given an opportunity to look cool, show off in front of the city ladies - and then add to that patriotism and fighting for your country (that was always the official propaganda) - what more could a youngster wish for... Most of you probably watched the TV documentary on British SS volunteers. Remember one of the survivors (I believe it was Eric Pleasants) and him recollecting (and quite nostalgically it seemed) having fun with girls in his SS uniform (instead of being a POW, which was his alternative). Not much politics there...

I hope I didn't bore you too much with my thoughts & "two cents"...!

Cheers,
Ivan

[Panzermahn]

Harro wrote:
Part of your denial is in the use of the word "some".

I won't stop you from having your own interpretations of what I had wrote in a very simple and clear English. I live it to other forum members to read for themselves of my earlier post since obviously you had unable to understand the context of what I had wrote at my earlier post apart from answering **Part of your denial is in the use of the word "some"**.

Harro wrote:
Did you look up "some" in your dictionary? What I mean is that you're deliberately trying to play down the political zeal of a considerable part of the foreign volunteers, just like you're trying to play down the differences between the Waffen-SS and the allied forces when you wrote

What deliberate playing down the political zeal of the volunteers? As I had already mentioned, I listed down the political beliefs of the volunteers from nationalists to the ex-communists. That is what they are at the time.

Harro wrote:
With such a comment you are (again) playing the "but they were bad too" card

So by saying Waffen SS had its fair share of criminals and psychopaths just like any army in the world be it the Red Army, US Army etc.. is considered playing the "but they were bad too" card. Or perhaps you preferred people to view that ALL members of the Waffen SS as "fascists beasts", "fascists invaders", "Hitlerite criminals" etc...?

Harro wrote:
What's your fixation on the use of the phrase "nobody is denying that"? I never said you denied that in the first place, just that you have a history in this forum of playing down those motives by deliberately focusing on the anti-communist motives of the foreign volunteers.

Read back what you wrote to me earlier (Part of your denial is in the use of the word "some".). Deliberately focusing on the anti-communist motives of the foreign volunteers? Isn't that the primary reason why foreign volunteers joined the Waffen SS in the first place? I be happy if you could prove me wrong by showing me that the PRIMARY reason that ALL volunteers joined the Waffen SS was the fanatical and unconditional belief in Nazism and Adolf Hitler.

(Btw, if you read the so-called dissertation by one Kenneth W. Estes in his magnum opus [which Rob-WSSOB2 are so fond of quoting it] available online in the Project Gutenberg website, A European Anabasis — Western European Volunteers in the German Army and SS, 1940–1945, the author managed to find that around 5% of the volunteers in Freikorps Danmark are criminals)

http://www.gutenberg-e.org/esk01/esk00.html

Harro wrote:
See what I mean? There's your focus on anti-communism again.

And that makes it wrong (or perhaps you meant to say that it is politically incorrect?) to show that the primary motive of foreign volunteers joining Waffen SS was anti-communism from a semantic as well as literal perspective?

Harro wrote:
What did you not understand when I wrote that there was a whole range of reasons why foreigners joined the Waffen-SS, including ardent nazism?

Again I agreed with you but I pointed out the "primary" reason/motivation of these volunteers

Harro wrote:
BTW, 50,000 Dutch volunteers in the Waffen-SS, make that 22,000 - 25,000 but since your image of the foreign volunteers parrots Steiner, I'm not surprised that you also parrot his inflated numbers.

I was using LIttlejohn's work on foreign legion of the Third reich as a source but it may be outdated (possibly he used Steiner's account as a source) so okay, thanks for correcting me on that

[Ivan Ž.]

Harro & Panzermahn: come on, you guys. The topic isn't about the two of you

I know both of you can do much better than this.

Ivan

[Harro]

Tiresome discussion, "Panzermahn" knows very well what I mean thats why he needs to twist my words and counter everything I say with suggestive questions which he knows I've answered a dozen times over the past decade. Questions like:

Or perhaps you preferred people to view that ALL members of the Waffen SS as "fascists beasts", "fascists invaders", "Hitlerite criminals" etc...?

He knows very well that I've never ever made such claims yet he deliberately asks me such questions to distort this topic. It is also laughable because this is exactly how he always talks about the Red Army (communist hydra being the most recent example).

[Ivan Ž.]

The primary reason and motivation why foreigners joined the Waffen SS was the struggle against communism/Bolshevism.

Dear Jochen,

I must react to this part. The primary motivation, or better said - what they were called for, yes. But I don't think anyone can say it was also primary reason for joining in for most of volunteers. Not just you, but anyone: how can you claim something like this (or the opposite!). It makes no sense, how could anyone of us know this. I bet that Himmler himself never knew what were the reasons of his volunteers for joining in. And that's the topic here. This is why I suggest, if anyone has some, more examples of individual reasons (interviews with veterans etc), it will surely be much more interesting than forum members' personal opinions... (no offense!)

This can be judged by the fact that numerous volunteer units made it clear that they could only be used in the Eastern Front against the Russians and NOT against the Western Allies. (A fact that Rob-WSSOB2 rarely mentioned in his postings about foreign Waffen SS units)

I must react to this part too, because I don't understand it. What do you mean by "units made it clear"? Did you perhaps mean "they [WSS leadership] made it clear that units could only be used in the Eastern Front...". Otherwise it seems that volunteers were negotiating with WSS authorities on where and who would they fight... If that's the case, it's news to me... (?)

Cheers,
Ivan

[Panzermahn]

Ivan Ž. wrote:
I must react to this part. The primary motivation, or better said - what they were called for, yes. But I don't think anyone can say it was also primary reason for joining in for most of volunteers. Not just you, but anyone: how can you claim something like this (or the opposite!). It makes no sense, how could anyone of us know this. I bet that Himmler himself never knew what were the reasons of his volunteers for joining in. And that's the topic here. This is why I suggest, if anyone has some, more examples of individual reasons (interviews with veterans etc), it will surely be much more interesting than forum members' personal opinions... (no offense!)

Hello Ivan

Primary reason/primary motivation, any difference semantically? It is to convey the main reason why foreign volunteers joined in the struggle against communism. Justified reason? I can't say for that but that is the current political situation at that time. Misguided reasons? Perhaps.

If you took a look at the Project Gutenberg website link which I had posted earlier with regards to the dissertation by Kenneth W. Estes on Western European volunteers in the German Army and Waffen SS, the author actually posted a breakdown of reasons of Danish volunteers joining Freikorps Danmark; (I am writting this from memory since I read that dissertation a couple of years ago so please correct me if I am wrong)

Anti-communism
Better pay and prospects
Adventurism
National Socialist beliefs
Criminals (escaping from local authorities)

I recall the percentage was the highest for anti-communism.

Of course, Himmler doesn't expect non-Nordic, non-Germanic, non-Aryan Europeans to enlist in his Waffen SS because of his racists and crankpot views. At that time when Operation Barbarossa was launched, Himmler expects the "Aryan-Germanic-Nordic" members of the Western Europe (Dutchmen, Flemings, Norwegians, Danes, Swedes - whereas volunteers from the Romance culture, Walloons, Spaniards, Frenchmen as well as the Ukrainians enlisted in the Wehrmacht) joining in the crusade but when Germany was battered in hard at the Eastern Front, Himmler was scrapping at the barrel for manpower and this forced him to change his crankpot views and he was forced to give a belated blessing to the Vlasov movement in late 1944

Ivan Ž. wrote:
I must react to this part too, because I don't understand it. What do you mean by "units made it clear"? Did you perhaps mean "they [WSS leadership] made it clear that units could only be used in the Eastern Front...". Otherwise it seems that volunteers were negotiating with WSS authorities on where and who would they fight... If that's the case, it's news to me... (?)

I was supposed to add a comma, sorry for the confusion;

This can be judged by the fact that numerous volunteer units, made it clear

I meant the leadership of the volunteers (non-Germans) in the foreign volunteer units. Let me go back to some of the sources I had mentioning about this.

[Ironmachine]

If you took a look at the Project Gutenberg website link which I had posted earlier with regards to the dissertation by Kenneth W. Estes on Western European volunteers in the German Army and Waffen SS, the author actually posted a breakdown of reasons of Danish volunteers joining Freikorps Danmark; (I am writting this from memory since I read that dissertation a couple of years ago so please correct me if I am wrong)
Anti-communism
Better pay and prospects
Adventurism
National Socialist beliefs
Criminals (escaping from local authorities)
I recall the percentage was the highest for anti-communism.

Going to the source:

Eddy De Bruyne, after decades of studying the Walloon volunteers in the Legion and Sturmbrigade, reading their papers and conducting interviews, divided this cohort into groups distinguished by their particular motivations for volunteering for German military service. These groups, ranked in order, are:

1. Those legionnaires who had Belgium (and its future) in mind and on whom totalitarian propaganda did not have much grip, as faith in their country protected them from Nazi German influence.

2. The Rexists, who had tried to take advantage of the German presence to impose a New Order regime.

3. Volunteers blinded by national-socialist social realizations and who had ended up by showing sympathy or even admiration for Nazi Germany and its regime, and who, maybe for other reasons too, ardently wished the German victory.

4. Practicing Catholics yielding to their religious ideals who had gone to war to fight communism with the same spirit that once had animated the Crusaders, since they truly considered Bolshevism to be the greatest threat to Christianity.

5. Individuals attracted by material advantages for themselves and their families; individuals eager to avoid a criminal conviction or to forget either sorrow, grief or a domestic disagreement ; individuals willing to put on the feldgrau uniform even knowing this gesture was reprehensible on moral or legal grounds.

6. The ones who on behalf of the oath of allegiance to Degrelle, naïve admiration, boundless friendship, inner conviction, or party discipline—joined Degrelle without being aware that the latter was (mis)using them for mere purposes of prestige and personal ambition.

http://www.gutenberg-e.org/esk01/frames/feskvid.html
So it seems that, at least in this case, the primary reason to join in was not anti-communism.

[Rob - wssob2]

Lot's of great discussion points!

Hi Arto, you wrote:

To understand why a young lad from Flanders, Holland etc voluntereed to Waffen-SS, we need to understand how was the times on those days and how is a mind of young man in his 20ies. He see that his country was invaded by an enemy, he must(?) have seen deportation or bad/horrible treatment of his countrymen or jews. But surely he never saw the KL camps, like Auswitz.

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that seeing the repression of one's countrymen isn't enough to drive home the point of the wickedness of the Nazi regime, and that only by seeing a death camp could the true face of the Third Reich be revealed?

Let's not forget that in September 1941 the SS took a company of volunteers from the SS-Wachbatallion Nordwest (a.k.a. Stabkompanie beim HSSPF Nordwest, a.k.a. Bataillon Helle) and assigned the unit to guard the Amemersfoort, Vught and Westerbork concentration camps, where Dutch Jews were collected prior to their transport to the extermination camps in the east.

Maybe later he learn about them, but it was too late. But is a man in this age worried necessary about that. He saw the winners (germans), he was called to be part winners, he was called to be part of the elite (SS).

If nowadays young lads in US would be called to form a Legion to combat ever rising thread of Muslim, Al-Qaeda etc. I would suppose there would be volunteers.

But your analogy isn't quite correct since such a legion wouldn't be foreign volunteers.