Portuguese in the Waffen-SS & Wehrmacht

Discussions on the foreigners (volunteers as well as conscripts) fighting in the German Wehrmacht, those collaborating with the Axis and other period Far Right organizations. Hosted by George Lepre.
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Padraic Pearse
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Post by Padraic Pearse » 08 Jun 2004 18:08

I did find a live soldier from Green Legion, but he refuses to talk to anyone :(

A few years ago he gave an interview and had a lot of problems, he was in a Russian Gulag for many years, has no pension, his only daughter hates him for fighting on the wrong side of the war...

He even wrote to the Spanish Government concerning a pension, since Green Legion was part of Blau Division, but he got nothing!

Anyway, he's not talking to anyone, I also believe that Portuguese General Spínola was on it, but it's so hard to find anything on Green Legion mostly because after WWII the Portuguese New State dictatorship wished no publicity on it, and all evidence was destroyed!

Panzermahn
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Post by Panzermahn » 08 Jun 2004 18:20

I did find a live soldier from Green Legion, but he refuses to talk to anyone

A few years ago he gave an interview and had a lot of problems, he was in a Russian Gulag for many years, has no pension, his only daughter hates him for fighting on the wrong side of the war...

He even wrote to the Spanish Government concerning a pension, since Green Legion was part of Blau Division, but he got nothing!

Anyway, he's not talking to anyone, I also believe that Portuguese General Spínola was on it, but it's so hard to find anything on Green Legion mostly because after WWII the Portuguese New State dictatorship wished no publicity on it, and all evidence was destroyed!
Padraic, this is very interesting! Did he decribe to you any unofficial insignia of the Green Legion? By the way, i'm sure not all archives are destroyed would they? There must be somewhere somehow some of the archives were kept about the Green Legion

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Totalkrieg
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Post by Totalkrieg » 14 Jun 2004 06:40

I'm also intersted about this.

I live in Brazil, and my cousin has a Portuguese neighbor. He is war veteran and they say he fough in Africa (not sure about this). He’s also too problematic and as his neighbor my cousin have had a lot of problems with him and his wife (he protests all the time about noise and kids playing at the street) so that he (my cousin) don’t wish to make contact to him for me.

He’s moving soon (the Portuguese veteran) so I have to be quick. I think I’ll send him a letter, so he can make contact to me if he wish to speak.

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tenente
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Portuguese volunteers in the Blue Division ?

Post by tenente » 21 Aug 2004 12:27

Hi there,

Would anyone be so kind in helping me confirming or not the presence of
Portuguese volunteers in the Blue Division in the Russia campaign ?
How many were they ? :|
Were they posted in the " regimiento de infanteria 269 ", as this regiment was recruited from Sevilla area, or were they dispersed among the other Division units ? :wink:
Many thanks for all yr answers/help

cheers/macedo

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Tom Stahler
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Post by Tom Stahler » 23 Aug 2004 18:54

They were 300 in the Green Legion in the Azul Division.

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 24 Aug 2004 01:40

Tenete, if you use the search function you will see various posts concerning the so called Green Legion and Portugese soldiers within the Azul Division

Andy H

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tenente
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Post by tenente » 24 Aug 2004 06:04

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the tip, but I have been searching for quite some years now,
and even knowing there are some portuguese, still alive, that fought in the Spanish Division, none agrees talking about that part of their lives, it seem they made and OATH and maintain silence.
Evidence, I look for evidence not just the words of someone sayng they were there................. that is very easy, sorry but is my feeling. :(
Thanks Mate. :wink:

cheers/jose
Andy H wrote:Tenete, if you use the search function you will see various posts concerning the so called Green Legion and Portugese soldiers within the Azul Division

Andy H

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tenente
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Post by tenente » 24 Aug 2004 06:11

Hi Tom,

Sorry Mate but where did yu get that info? do yu have anything confirming that ? There are some clues appionting for the dispersing of the Portuguese volunteers within the Division not a formed unit but only clues nothing definite. Anyway thanks for yr help, I will keep searching.

Be well/jose macedo
Tom Stahler wrote:They were 300 in the Green Legion in the Azul Division.

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Tom Stahler
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Post by Tom Stahler » 24 Aug 2004 13:45

In a book of Jean Mabire.

Panzermahn
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Post by Panzermahn » 23 Oct 2004 07:13

Hey guys, i found a link about portuguese volunteers in Blue division..but it's in spanish..hopefully someone out there can translate the webpage for us...thanks

http://www.geocities.com/divazul/portug ... nazul.html

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Kurt_Steiner
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Post by Kurt_Steiner » 23 Oct 2004 10:03

I don't know how to say this politely, but that link only contains fascist bullshit. However, there you have the translation. I hope that it has any interest to anyone:
PORTUGUESE IN THE BLUE DIVISION

The Portuguese "Viriatos" of the Blue Division.

Every day that it spends we believe that everything is already spoken, treated or studied. This is not true at all, especially in historical studies. The passage of time comes covers everything and, in addition to this, the hand of the man has something to do with this, due willigness to cover something disgusting or because the issue tread is suppossed to have noimportance.

The topic of the Blue Division has been covered by more than 300 great books, in hundreds of articles, memoirs of ex-soldiers. Nevertheless, in none of them was had any new about the steadfastness of the participation of Portuguese volunteers in the Blue Division, as they are ancient voluntary combatants in the Crusade [note: typical referece of the Fascist writers to the SCW] of 1.936-1939. As they were active anti-Bolshevik combatants who did not want to get lost the return of the visit done to Spain by the Soviet Russia and wanted to accompany his Spanish companions in his fate, in the struggle against a common enemy.

In both cases they came from the foreign Spanish Legion and the contribution to the knowledge of these facts and under the fresh point of view in the time, so the declarations of the interview realized in the same year 1942 when the Portuguese volunteer João Rodrigues Júnior returned. This interview was done by the Portuguese magazine AESFERA (August 23 of 1.942) (this said magazine, in spite of Portugal was a country of Anglophilic influence, pro National-socialist [note: no more comments are need about the political tendency of the whole article], , with very good reportages on the World war and with sections, many of them cultural, on the different countries which were friends of the Axis, between them Spain. His last number was giving the condolement to the German people for the death of Führer Adolf Hitler [my comment: 8O ]and was dated on May 8 of 1.945, date in which the allied committees proceed to the seizure of all the goods of persons and companies linked to the AXIS. In the said interview that is reproduced later he mentions the existence of other Portuguese volunteers who died down in the Russian steppes.


RETURN FROM THE FRONT OF LENINGRAD.

A Portuguese legionary of the Tercio who has been in the Blue Division.
This boy, brown and fragile, 26 years old, who we have here with us, has very much that to say and to his people.
His name is João Rodrigues Júnior and has been born in Mafra. After doing military service, he became painter of the civil construction. He came to Spain where it had begun the Civil war, and he joined the ' Foreign Legion ' in 1936. After recruit, he went to Melilla, to be trained , and incorporated in a "bandera" [a batallion] of the Tercio. He fought in the terrible struggle of Teruel, with temperatures of many grades under zero [Note of the translator: I can assure you that this fact is true, as my grandpa fought also in Teruel and stated many times that it was a cold hell. So, at least, some true facts can be found... Amazing], and also the battle of the Ebro and in Catalonia. It was injured two times, and one of them left blind for some time.
His contract with the Legion was for five years and it was ending. It might renew or to go out; but ...

- It was when the war against Russia began. And I, that in the years of the war of Spain I started understanding what they are the Bolshevists, and his ideas in the mother land, decided to continue my life of legionario, fighting against them. When in Spain began the inscriptions for the campaign of Russia, I volunteered.
- Were in the Blue Division other Portuguese legionaries?
- Yes, approximately fifteen. But I think I'm the only one that still vive.
- In the Division there have been many casualties?
- Approximately six thousand, but the truth is that the majority of them due to the cold. You cannot imagine what is to fight against 35,5 grades under zero!

João Rodrigues Júnior teaches us his season-ticket spent in Berlin. IT shows that he belonged to the Spanish Division that, during the crusade against the communist Russia, was numbered 250. And also that was injured and sent to a German hospital of campaign.
- When the Blue Division was crossing France, the train was attacked by many English planes that did not hit us. And when we happen in the Vichy France, a great group of people, even some women, insulted and tried to steal the train from us. There we used our weapon and some of them fell down.
After the arrival, we went away to the front of Leningrad. We were there for almost a year under the command of a great military man: the greatest Ramirez of Cartagena. We fought non-stop and violently. But our worse enemy was the cold - so much the fact was that for often we had to fight only in shirt, under unacceptable temperatures, because the jackets that had given to us were hard as stones.
- What do you think of the organization of the campaign of Russia, to taken care with the combatants?
- About it, as in everything else, I, as a veteran of the war of Spain, can say that it was fantastic. The Germans organized everything admirably, food, ammunitions, transports, assistance to patients and injured men, etc.
- And the Russians?
- His attacks are constant and very violent. But "that" is completely different from what it goes on from our side. They always attack in great numbers, often with women, old men and very small children, and die in great numbers, too, because they do not use our tactics of walking at some distance of teh other people, in small groups. Those who we saw are not good military men, at least they had neither preparation nor military organization. I can say that independently of what happened to our forces, many Russian divisions were made prisoners by our much smaller groups, since it happened in the sector of the river Volchov, where the disparity between winners and defeated was impressive.
- What impression caused you the Russians?
- Horrible. Bad clothes, famine, dirty. The women, a misery. Without any delight like shoes, many they were using "sarapilheria", clothes in the feet!...
- Good example of the results of the application of the comunist principles!
- It is true. And good would be that they were going to verify, which want to know what is the practice the communism. "

Translation realized for: Pedro Guedes Da Miscellany (Portugal)
Another testimony, he arranges an appointment in the Portuguese diary O INDEPENDENTLY, of date June 26 of 1.992, in an interview realized to Jaime de Assuncâo Graça, ex-legionary and also combatant of the Crusade of 1936-39 and ex-combatant of the Blue Division. At the time of the said interview it was 79.

He narrates he joined the Spanish Legion with a group of approximately 45 Portuguese and that had the assent of Salazar, took part in the war and he mentions places: Talavera de la Reina Real, Cuesta de las perdices , Madrid , Chamartin, Villaverde Bajo, where he was hurt by grapeshot and sent to a hospital inLogrono.

Photo of the group of Portuguese in the Legion included Jaime Graça

He mentions Portuguese officials, like Ricardo Espirito Santo and the Captain Botelho Moniz, as, after ending the war, who after the war went to for the north of Africa, first to Tetuán, then Larache, reaching the destination finally in 1939 in a billeting to five km from Ceuta, assigned to the 9th bandera of the Legion. In June of 1.942 during a revision done by a sargent, he remembers the name of another called Portuguese Francisco Leonardo Olinda and in this way he became a volunteer to Russia where he was until January 1943.

Jaime Graça's photo with German uniform.

From Africa he goes to San Sebastian to the barracks of the Blue Division and comes to Germany to Hof. He is surprised by the order, the cleanliness and the fastidiousness of the German. Like his Spanish comrades, he didn't like cold meals and the sausages.
It was in the front of Leningrad, next to Pushkin iwhen he was hurt for the first time by a bullet in the leg left and taken to the hospital. He was send to hospital at Riga, Latvia, where ihewas very well treated by the Germans and given of discharge to 15 days.
He complains of the cold and that I cause many falls also of the long-suffering hardships, between them the famine, and remembers as they were hunted and some of they of them were eating uprats.
To the question of which all the Portuguese were with, him he says that between 100 to 200 and that in his company there was five more but that later have never been seen.
He remembers fondly other volunteers who were fighting together with the Germans, "we those of the Blue Division were in the center and on both sides we had Frenchmen and Poles, quite we were fighting against the Red Army. Behind there was the heavy artillery. Thanks to her it was possible to repel a blow of hand Russian, but on having seen his intensity we realized that it was an offensive, considering his great number, for all sides there were people without arms, without legs, , (he mentions neither date nor place.). "

To the return of Russia it returns to Portugal to his job, and does some trips to Spain of adventurous character.

As times goes by and due to the wounds of war, he travels to Madrid to ask for a war compensation, which is pushed back in a last attempt. He sends a letter to the prime minister of that time, Felipe González Márquez ......... and receives a new and last denial underlining the following phrase " I regret not being able to give another response more according to your interests ", logically if he had been a member of the international brigades, not only it had received a pay, but some that another homage at the cost of the treasury public, [NO COMMENTS.... 8O ]
Though they are histories of common, anonymous people, of those that history dedicates big rivers of ink, they are a part of this small history that it is necessary to recover to have a better idea of what was a turbulent age, when Spain had his last warlike international appearance of the XXth century. 8O
If this simple article serves to refresh the memory of someone of his protagonists and new information appears, it will not be in vain.

In Portugal a leaflet exists, anonymous, on the campaign of Russia realized by another volunteer Portugués in the Blue Division, titled "THAT the VIth NA RUSSIA - a relato dum Legionary Divisao Azul que combateu na front Russa " of 16 pages and without date of edition (but for the text and the appearance near to the contest or in the years very close to her). It describes the trip to the training camp, the stay and a praises to German and Spanish, undoubtedly very interesting.
8O :?

Best regards..

Panzermahn
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Post by Panzermahn » 23 Oct 2004 15:51

Kurt Steiner,

Thanks for the translation....

But i don't understand what do you mean by fascist bullshit? Care to explain? Thanks again

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Kurt_Steiner
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Post by Kurt_Steiner » 23 Oct 2004 16:55

Ok... In short:
Nevertheless, in none of them was had any new about the steadfastness of the participation of Portuguese volunteers in the Blue Division, as they are ancient voluntary combatants in the Crusade [note: typical referece of the Fascist writers to the SCW] of 1.936-1939. As they were active anti-Bolshevik combatants who did not want to get lost the return of the visit done to Spain by the Soviet Russia and wanted to accompany his Spanish companions in his fate, in the struggle against a common enemy.
As commented in my note, the term Crusade was only used by the Franquist writers. It's a fascist term that qualifies the article by itself. You can refer to the SCW in many ways, but Crusade... It's a very disgusting way to do so, as if God had something to do with battles. Oddily enough, as a funny footnote, the Spanish crusaders used Moors while fighting the Republican army. Funny indeed.
His last number was giving the condolement to the German people for the death of Führer Adolf Hitler
Should I explain why I considered this articule a bit fascist?

Summing up, the views of the volunteers repeat more or less what we already know: they were fighthing the Red danger to save Europe and so on.
What do you think of the organization of the campaign of Russia, to taken care with the combatants?
- About it, as in everything else, I, as a veteran of the war of Spain, can say that it was fantastic. The Germans organized everything admirably, food, ammunitions, transports, assistance to patients and injured men, etc.
How many times we have commented the lack of winter equipment of the Wehrmacht in the Russian campaign? Suddenly, everything woks so well that one cannot understand how the heck the Germans were defeated.
And the Russians?
- His attacks are constant and very violent. But "that" is completely different from what it goes on from our side. They always attack in great numbers, often with women, old men and very small children, and die in great numbers, too, because they do not use our tactics of walking at some distance of teh other people, in small groups. Those who we saw are not good military men, at least they had neither preparation nor military organization. I can say that independently of what happened to our forces, many Russian divisions were made prisoners by our much smaller groups, since it happened in the sector of the river Volchov, where the disparity between winners and defeated was impressive.
Propaganda stereotypes, I would think.
He remembers fondly other volunteers who were fighting together with the Germans, "we those of the Blue Division were in the center and on both sides we had Frenchmen and Poles, quite we were fighting against the Red Army. Behind there was the heavy artillery.
Ok, the LVF fought in the Western front, but in the in the Central sector, not in the north. Ok, I may be wrong. But Poles? Is the author kidding? Summing up, is the author trying to arouse the idea that the whole "true" Europe was fighting against the Red Army????? If this is not fascist revisionist propaganda... you tell me.
As times goes by and due to the wounds of war, he travels to Madrid to ask for a war compensation, which is pushed back in a last attempt. He sends a letter to the prime minister of that time, Felipe González Márquez ......... and receives a new and last denial underlining the following phrase " I regret not being able to give another response more according to your interests ", logically if he had been a member of the international brigades, not only it had received a pay, but some that another homage at the cost of the treasury public, Though they are histories of common, anonymous people, of those that history dedicates big rivers of ink, they are a part of this small history that it is necessary to recover to have a better idea of what was a turbulent age, when Spain had his last warlike international appearance of the XXth century.
If this simple article serves to refresh the memory of someone of his protagonists and new information appears, it will not be in vain.
Should I say anything about this fragment?

In short, this text is highly biased. Little useful can be obtained from it.

Best regards

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Post by Panzermahn » 25 Oct 2004 07:22

As commented in my note, the term Crusade was only used by the Franquist writers. It's a fascist term that qualifies the article by itself. You can refer to the SCW in many ways, but Crusade... It's a very disgusting way to do so, as if God had something to do with battles. Oddily enough, as a funny footnote, the Spanish crusaders used Moors while fighting the Republican army. Funny indeed.
Ummm, then how about the Papal's 1st, 2nd 3rd, Crusades against the Moslems in the Holy Land? The Pope must be a fascist too...Or perhaps you're implying those historians whoever wrote the word crusades must be franquist or fascists writers, right?

Quote:
His last number was giving the condolement to the German people for the death of Führer Adolf Hitler


Should I explain why I considered this articule a bit fascist?

Summing up, the views of the volunteers repeat more or less what we already know: they were fighthing the Red danger to save Europe and so on.
Well, Ireland's president Eamon de Valera send his condolences to the German government for the death of the Fuhrer. He must be a fascist too 8O

How many times we have commented the lack of winter equipment of the Wehrmacht in the Russian campaign? Suddenly, everything woks so well that one cannot understand how the heck the Germans were defeated.


This statement is true IF you stating it the context of the winter equipment for Heer during 1941-1942. Otherwise, the Luftwaffe and Waffen SS were amply equipped with winter equipment. The main as well as first and foremost the Germans were defeated is because the huge numerical superiority of Allies including Russia in terms of manpower, equipment and economic resources

Ok, the LVF fought in the Western front, but in the in the Central sector, not in the north. Ok, I may be wrong. But Poles? Is the author kidding? Summing up, is the author trying to arouse the idea that the whole "true" Europe was fighting against the Red Army????? If this is not fascist revisionist propaganda... you tell me.
Why not? Poles had been serving in Ordnungspolizei, so what makes you think it is impossible for a Pole or a Polish citizen of ethnic Germans served in the Wehrmacht? Whether you like it or not, metaphorically or literally, indeed, every European nationality can be found in the Axis forces and Wehrmacht compared to the so-called Allies.
Should I say anything about this fragment?

In short, this text is highly biased. Little useful can be obtained from it.


So what is wrong? Don't tell me that in this case, it's impossible to happen?

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Kurt_Steiner
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Post by Kurt_Steiner » 25 Oct 2004 08:18

Ummm, then how about the Papal's 1st, 2nd 3rd, Crusades against the Moslems in the Holy Land? The Pope must be a fascist too...Or perhaps you're implying those historians whoever wrote the word crusades must be franquist or fascists writers, right?
Don't try that kind of game... There is a difference between the historical crusades in Holy Lands and SCW. If you want to call it Crusade, it's fine for me. But don't say it aloud in you ever visite Spain :wink: . Someone (not me, I don't care) would feel quite offended. Few writers (only those with links with the extreme right ideologies) use it. But, as stated above, if you want to use it, it's fine for me.
Well, Ireland's president Eamon de Valera send his condolences to the German government for the death of the Fuhrer. He must be a fascist too
Let me remind you that de Valera's attitude during WW2 was quite odd.
This statement is true IF you stating it the context of the winter equipment for Heer during 1941-1942. Otherwise, the Luftwaffe and Waffen SS were amply equipped with winter equipment. The main as well as first and foremost the Germans were defeated is because the huge numerical superiority of Allies including Russia in terms of manpower, equipment and economic resources
Ok, but the Blue Division was a Heer unit, not a W-SS. Should I remind you the casualties caused by the weather during the Battle of Moscow? General Winetr wasn't the only cause of the German defeat, but it helped to it.
Poles had been serving in Ordnungspolizei, so what makes you think it is impossible for a Pole or a Polish citizen of ethnic Germans served in the Wehrmacht? Whether you like it or not, metaphorically or literally, indeed, every European nationality can be found in the Axis forces and Wehrmacht compared to the so-called Allies.
A Volkdeustche born in Poland is quite different from a Pole. About the nationalities. 30 British fought in the BFC. I would't say that the UK was in the Axis side. Do we have compare the number of French volunteers in the Wehrmacht and in the W-SS with those who fought for the Allies (resistance included)? Let's see: how many Irish, Spaniards, Dutch, Belgian, Danes, etc... fought for the Allies and how many for the III Reich?

About why it is biased, I've stated the reasons (all the unit fighthing in the Eastern front had winter equipment, all nationalities fought as brethren and so on). If you still fail to notice them, nothing else can be done for my part.

Ok, it's not my intention to create a silly debate over this topic. If you think that this article is worth reading, ok, no problem for me. I made some comments to give some advice for future readers. If I'm wrong, ok. But the article still bullshit with few or almost no value at all.

Let's stop here before it grows into ridicule levels.

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