Serbian volunteers on Eastern front

[xqtr]

Although Milan Nedic and Dimitrije Ljotic refused numerous German demands to send one company of 100 men (volunteers) on Eastern front, there were individual Serb volunteers in Wehrmacht or SS on Eastern front. From begining of 1942 when August Meyszner came to Belgrade as military commander of Serbia, until Nedic`s visit to Hitler on 19th September 1943, Germans (including even Ribentrop) repeatedly asked Milan Nedic and Dimitrije Ljotic to send a company of 100 Serbian volunteers to the Eastern front. Germans would use it as propaganda that Serbia is also participating in creating of New Europe, and as return Germans offered better position of occupied Serbia in New Order and expanding it`s borders, SDK (Serbian Volunteer Corps) to become a SS division with 20.000 men with modern German weapons and canceling reprisals for rebel`s attacks on Germans. Milan Nedic and Dimitrije Ljotic refused that as they were loyal to the young king Peter (who was in London), and "USSR is ally of our king, although we are aware of danger of USSR".
But, individual Serb volunteers with national-socialist and anti-communist views, independent from Nedic/Ljotic joined German army. Here are some of them:





Pictures are from military graveyard in Ludwigsburg near Stutgart. Their info:

Nachname: Sekulic
Vorname: Milian
Dienstgrad: Soldat
Geburtsdatum: 19.04.1920
Geburtsort: Donia Nutnica
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 26.01.1942

Nachname: Djurdjevic
Vorname: Dragoljav
Dienstgrad: Feldwebel
Geburtsdatum: 27.09.1910
Geburtsort: Turbusnisa
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 08.10.1941




Very important German document for historic revision which says about:
Families of three Orthodox Serbian SS volunteers on Eastern front (Jovo Belic, Savo Klicic, Stevo Sucic ) have been slaughtered by criminal chauvinist ustashas ("brave" croatian murderers of odl men, women and children) on 7th February 1944, document is from 1st March 1944. Sixteen family members of SS soldier Savo Klicic have been massacred. Ivestigation is about to be taken.





NAW, T-314, Roll 566, 000165-6: Izvještaj Grupe tajne poljske policije br. 9 o ubistvima članova porocida trojice pripadnika SS koje su ustaše izvršile 7. Februara 1944 u Staroj Gradiški (1. mart 1944.).
Radi se o porodicama trojice članova SS-a (Jovo Belic, Savo Klicic, Stevo Sucic [sic]) koji se nalaze na Istočnom frontu.
Svi ubijeni su pravoslavci.

http://znaci.net/00002/T314_566/352_169.htm

We can guess that these Serbian SS volunteers from north Bosnia belonged to pro-German chetnik formations of Uros Drenovic or Mane Rokvic.



Serbian volunteer in Wehrmacht Dragomir Pantelic who was in Yugoslavia in 1941 and later went to Eastern front:



Dragomir Pantelić



Geboren in einem kleinen Dorf
mitten in Jugoslawien
und schon mit 10 Jahren Vollwaise,
erzählt Dragomir Pantelić in beeindruckender
Weise sein schweres Schicksal im
kriegsgebeutelten Heimatland.
Sein Weg führt ihn durch Österreich
bis nach München,
wo er endlich eine neue Heimat findet.

[Ivan Ž.]

Question 1: what makes any of the mentioned people - Serbian? Birth location - religion - surname? All of those were shared by the Serbs & Croats - and others, even Germans. "Orthodox" does not necessarily mean Serbian and "catholic" does not necessarily mean Croatian. Local Germans changed the religion and the surname as well. The best known example is of the well known Serbian actor Zoran Radmilović's family surname, which was originally German, Lang (his German grandfather fell in love with an orthodox girl and changed his religion and name).

The ethnicity wasn't mentioned in any of the provided documents.

I've found the initial online sources for all of the mentioned people (the sources which you never credited), which were then gathered on a neonazi forum to fit an imaginary story as usually, in a topic which you copied and reposted here. None of the sources proved the ethnicity of those people - nor their involvement in the Wehrmacht - nor any connection with the Eastern Front (ref. esp. to Pantelić, Đurđević, Sekulić). All of the sources were dealing only with speculations based on - nothing actually.

Someone was born in a village in Serbia - and that is what determines his ethnicity? What if he's born in a boat in the middle of nowhere? Would that make his ethnicity a boatman or perhaps a nowhereman?

Serbian volunteer in Wehrmacht Dragomir Pantelic who was in Yugoslavia in 1941 and later went to Eastern front

You added "and later went to Eastern front". Why? That was not written in your source. And it is a lie. And judging by the photo and the originally quoted text - he wasn't even a German soldier (yes, he is in a German uniform, but look closely at the photo and read the original text).

But, individual Serb volunteers with national-socialist and anti-communist views, independent from Nedic/Ljotic joined German army. Here are some of them:

What is the source which states the supposed reason for joining the German army?

We can guess that these Serbian SS volunteers from north Bosnia belonged to pro-German chetnik formations of Uros Drenovic or Mane Rokvic.

We can guess that based on... what?

And those formations were "pro-German" based on... what? There was hardly anyone in the Balkans who was actually "pro-German" except for some of the local Germans; even the Germans back then knew that. Even the Italians weren't pro-German, not to mention the entire Balkans.

slaughtered by criminal chauvinist ustashas ("brave" croatian murderers of odl men, women and children)

Who exactly called those particular murderers "brave"?

Ivan

[xqtr]

General Adalbert Loncar 1885-1947 (left on the picture) had far Serbian origin (source - Vojska Nediceve Srbije, Bojan Dimitrijevic).

[Ivan Ž.]

Dear anonymous member, your reply has as much sense as your initial post and the uncensored private message you sent me.

I can't find a reason to continue any discussion here.

Best wishes,
Ivan

[steverodgers801]

My understanding is that the Cetniks were willing to fight with the Germans against the Communists. They never went to the east front as far as I know, but stayed in Yugoslavia. There was a three way civil war as the Ustashi also collaborated with the Germans against Jews and other non Croatians

[David Thompson]

Two posts from xqtr containing insulting personal remarks about another member were removed.

[Ivan Ž.]

An important note regarding the "pro-German" classification. There is a huge difference between being someone's ally, to collaborate and to be actually pro-someone/something. I don't think there was a country or a nation in history which was truly pro-another-country or a nation. In such a case, a country or a nation loses its identity and is being absorbed in that other country/nation (not counting examples like Austria 1938, for several reasons, or some basically forced unions of countries). The same case was with the countries/nations/forces during WWII: no one was pro another country - everyone was pro-themselves. After the war was "over", various former allies continued fighting - but this time between themselves. So, no - chetniks, partisans, Serbian volunteers, ustashas, Italians, Albanians, Bulgarians and anyone else - were not pro-German, pro-Soviet, pro-British etc. Especially in the Balkans, Germans had problems with absolutely everyone, including their allies and collaborators. And in general, most of the WWII "friendships", Axis/Allies, were insincere and only temporary.

Cheers,
Ivan

[steverodgers801]

Pro german in the sense they were willing to collaborate for their own goals

[Ivan Ž.]

Pro german in the sense they were willing to collaborate for their own goals

That was the whole point of my previous post. "Pro-German" means something else. The term does not describe the willingness to collaborate for own goals, but for someone else's goals. And thus was incorrectly used.

Ivan

[steverodgers801]

They still worked with the Germans.

[Ivan Ž.]

They still worked with the Germans.

Yes, it is a very well known information and very off-topic right here.

Ivan

[TISO]

From:
http://histomil.com/viewtopic.php?f=338 ... start=5360


Surrender of Germans who served Ljubomir Popovic (Ljubomir Popovich, a Serb by nationality) of the 35th Infantry Regiment of the Wehrmacht, Botoshki Peter (Peter Botoshki, Serbia) of the 7th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht and of Andreas Todd (Tod Andreash, Slovakia) of 7- th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht in the Voronezh area.

[Ivan Ž.]

This is still the very same topic as the one on the neonazi Stormfront site, where it was copied from. That (last) post is there too. And no one mentions any source for the photo and the IDs. There's just a photo and some Russian guy's comment. This is really immature.

Ivan

[TISO]

This is still the very same topic as the one on the neonazi Stormfront site, where it was copied from. That (last) post is there too. And no one mentions any source for the photo and the IDs. There's just a photo and some Russian guy's comment. This is really immature.

Ivan

1. I don't post on Stormfront. Let's just say they are not my cup of tea and i would be banned there PDQ. So i take a bit of an objection to that.

2. I found the photo on the site histomil.com while searching for photos of other stuff (soviet armor) remembered there was a question on this forum with RE serbian soldiers in german armed forces in the east and posted the pic with description together with link to the page where i found it. IRRC this is a proper procedure for posting material from other sources.

3. If you think that is as per you immature that is your problem.

Cheers,
Tiso

[Ivan Ž.]

Dear Tiso, my previous comment refers to the entire ridiculous topic and the identical continuation as on the neonazi site, and not to you personally. I am sorry if you have found yourself offended, no one said that your intention was to spread the neonazi material, but the posts simply are the same. Just some Russian guy's unsourced comment is NOT called a source and it IS immature and that is OUR problem (that is, if we all care about the history here) and not only mine.

Since no one bothered to check/dispute any of the nonsense posted here, and the forum staff refuses to remove the neonazi propaganda material for some reason, I will write a detailed reply now (at first I thought this will be unnecessary, but I guess I was wrong).

1. Let's make something (very irrelevant) clear: I don't personally care whether Serbs or any nation served at the Eastern Front. Every individual is free to make his own choices and that's really none of my concern. If the Eastern Front makes someone happy, so be it. But I am strongly against people clearly making things up, no matter what is the topic.

2. Photos of graves appeared a while ago online - with NO background story. This is one of the earlier topics dealing with one of them http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=172602 (there are more sites with them, and some were lost in time). The "additional story" served here was made up in time, by the neonazis. No one bothered to think that these two buried men perhaps died in German captivity as Yugoslav soldiers and that their ranks were written in German only because they were buried in Germany? This also might not be the case, of course, but is way more logical and indeed highly possible (there was a POW camp in the same city), and it happened all the time: many died in captivity, and the locals wrote their enemies' ranks translated, and not in the enemy language (that is if they buried the enemies). There is no info about the cause of death, place, nor about the units of these two men. But neonazis nevertheless wrote "individual Serb volunteers with national-socialist and anti-communist views, independent from Nedic/Ljotic joined German army, here are some of them". In case these two men died as prisoners of war, and thus were the victims of the nazis, to write they were nazis themselves is highly disrespectful.

3. I've already commented the paper, which mentions only the religion - "orthodox" does not necessarily mean Serbian and "catholic" does not necessarily mean Croatian (etc, see the rest of my reply above).

4. Photo of the boy, Dragomir Pantelić: this is the original source and the source where the neonazis copied their part of the "story" from http://www.bulkes.de/pantelic.html - they copied it only partially so it could seem as if he was a volunteer in the German army. They "forgot" to copy the part "Ich ging zum Militär, wo ich beide Beine verlor. Zur Genesung wurde ich nach Deutschland geschickt und geriet in sowjetische Gefangenschaft. Von dort hat man mich in Titos Jugoslawien zurückgeschickt, wo ich in Gefängnisse von Osijek bis Kragujevac gesteckt wurde". All this was taken from his memoirs and the quoted part is also from the text about the Kragujevac massacre, not some Eastern Front; Pantelić was just a member of the Serbian Volunteer Corps, lost his legs as a SVC soldier and was sent to Germany for a recovery (hence the German uniform) and was captured by the Soviets. If neonazis suggest that he volunteered without his legs for the Eastern Front, and that Germans accepted him, then really hats off to them.

5. Photo of Adalbert Lontschar. Yes, there is even a photo of Adalbert Lontschar posted in this topic. No one knows why.

Again, no one disputes a possibility of ANY nation volunteering for the Eastern Front, but THIS particular topic is a work of fiction.

Cheers,
Ivan